Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

Yes. It is true. If CS has a condition that is only present in males then by definition CS is male.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative, but logically it appears to be the case.

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

Semenya is an intersex woman,[8] with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency,[9] assigned female at birth,[10] with XY chromosomes and natural heterogametic testosterone levels

She was assigned female at birth, because of course no one looks at a baby's chromosomes.
She was subjected to numerous tests when she was an athlete and was permitted to compete in women's athletics until new rules were brought in about testosterone levels

But of course Sunak says "Men are men and women are women" Only it isn't true is it?

If, as Rosie's quote suggests, CS's DSD affects only genetic males, then CS is a male, surely? What does 'living as a woman' mean? Is it the same in South Africa as in the UK?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

But they are women Rosie51! And Men are men and women are women, or are you saying these women are men?
That's a bit harsh being as they have all always lived as women.

There is doubt that Caster Semenya has always lived as female, there are photos of Caster in the boy's school uniform. Regardless what does living as a woman mean?
Sports are divided by many categories, but the most common is males in one category, females in the other. You may regard Caster as a woman, but you can't deny biology and Caster is genetically male. Therefore Caster can race in the sex appropriate category, and won't be expected to suppress testosterone.

Women are women and men are men. TW are never women.

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

But they are women Rosie51! And Men are men and women are women, or are you saying these women are men?
That's a bit harsh being as they have all always lived as women.

I'm glad he said it. Glad ANYONE is saying it. Some kind of right wing plot? I think the relentless pushing of the whole trans thing is more likely to be a 'plot' - or at least have a hidden agenda.

I don’t understand why you’re so desperate for people to have to show their genitalia Glorianny. You always bring this up, usually to accompany your claims that you can’t tell the difference.
Maybe you can’t, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s definitely not true of the TW (males) who enter female toilets, changing rooms etc and demonstrate that they are men.

And once again we come back to honesty.
Are you claiming that it’s OK for men to be dishonest about their sex, by words or actions, whether anyone knows or not?

I don’t understand this endorsement of lying, as long as it’s men or in particular TW who are doing the lying, whilst at the same time condemning members of the Tory party for lying.

How do you decide which lies to accept?

Glorianny

So what does he want people to do? Demand to see evidence of someone's sex before admitting them? I must say at all the events I have attended to celebrate and promote women's causes no one has ever asked to see proof I am a woman and I hope they never do.
Be very careful the far right have set out their agenda- pick off the obvious first-trans people- then work on the rest. Only the hetero-normal family will be permitted. It's happening in Europe irr.org.uk/article/feminism-biological-fundamentalism-attack-on-trans-rights/

Totally Agree! If people think things are this simple then we are heading to a very dangerous place! It frightens me what the far right are doing to the world at the moment.

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

Yes, I get it - you've posted this before. Are you suggesting that racism is at play? I don't know what to say - I am not a sports fan, so don't follow athletics - surely the same restrictions apply to athletes of all races and nationalities?

Can you see what I am getting at though? Posting links to confirm that these biological differences exist doesn't engage with my point at all. All competitive sport is about physical limitations and stretching the parameters of what the human body can do. It is, therefore important that competitors are evenly matched. Boxing does it by weight, horse racing jockeys are usually small and slight, even school sports days differentiate by age and sometimes sex. Why is it wrong to do the same in athletics?

4 black women athletes banned from Olympic events because of naturally high ;levels of testosterone www.insider.com/intersex-olympic-athletes-barred-from-competing-in-preferred-olympic-event-2021-7

2 Namibian athletes banned fo the same reason www.axios.com/2021/07/03/namibia-disqualified-naturally-high-testosterone-olympic

An Indian athlete also banned www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/08/sprinter-dutee-chand-appeals-ban-failing-gender-test#:~:text=The%20teenage%20Indian%20sprinter%20Dutee,a%20controversial%20%E2%80%9Cgender%20test%E2%80%9D

It isn't anything to do with trans matters simply a question of a single statement which is either true or not true.
Sorry, you've lost me there. What isn't anything to do with trans matters, and what is a single statement?

I've asked the question what are the women athletes who are not permitted to take part in women's athletics?
I am absolutely not an expert in this area, so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to answer, but it seems to me that they are also being used. I assume you know the answer, as you often bring this up - what is the reason given by the adjudicators in sport who have arrived at this conclusion?

If the authorities in sport have determined that to enter into a female category a contestant must have above a certain amount of oestrogen, and below a certain amount of testosterone, or that they must have been female at puberty (or whatever the parameters are) then someone who does not fit that category is ineligible to compete. It's unfortunate, but I would also be ineligible because of physical characteristics - in my case not hormones or chromosomal characteristics, but because I am not fit enough, because my breathing is not strong enough, because my legs aren't long enough, my muscles are not well enough developed etc. Only a small percentage of the population would qualify to compete, so I don't see that as unfair, or as discrimination - there have to be rules to make the competition fair to all competitors.

I’ve heard this argument both from G & T.
Women are women. Males are not.
Are you saying the issue faced by some women means they aren’t women?
That’s as appalling as the problems they already face.
Males are never female whatever they do or claim.

Doodledog

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

Yes, and that is why I asked what Glorianny meant. Now we know. It was 'Intersex' - a term which is resisted by those being labelled as such, for exactly the reasons you describe, Rosie.

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage?

It isn't anything to do with trans matters simply a question of a single statement which is either true or not true.
I've asked the question what are the women athletes who are not permitted to take part in women's athletics?

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

I'm not othering anyone. The evidence is there women athletes are not permitted to compete as women, they are not recognised as women, so they are "othered". But apparently Men are men and women are women.
Explain to me what these women are

They have a condition which only impacts males if that's what you mean.
Unless you mean transmen who cant compete because of their testosterone level.

Mollygo

Men are male and women are female.
Men who claim to be women for the purpose of cheating and lying are the people who have caused the current problems.
Females and males who refuse to acknowledge this are part of the problem.

So what are the women who are refused permission to take part in women's sports Mollygo?

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage? Exactly Doodledog, women, people with a DSD, people of colour, homosexual and bisexual people.....they're all just collateral damage in the TWAW cause. As India Willoughby, that wonderful transwoman, says "If Black women are women then so am I!" (except India likes to write "blackwomen, all one word" and thinks that's clever )

Rosie51

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.

Yes, and that is why I asked what Glorianny meant. Now we know. It was 'Intersex' - a term which is resisted by those being labelled as such, for exactly the reasons you describe, Rosie.

Oh well, if their DSD is being used in an attempt to fuel the TWAW cause, perhaps they should just accept that they are collateral damage?

I'm sorry but f you ask question which you well know the answer to who exactly is being manipulative here?
I didn't know what you were referring to, which is why I asked 🙄. How could I know what you were talking about? What's manipulative about asking?

Oh no sunak doesnt care, as I said the Tories were mired in this nonsense for years.

Men are male and women are female.
Men who claim to be women for the purpose of cheating and lying are the people who have caused the current problems.
Females and males who refuse to acknowledge this are part of the problem.

... Glorianny - what I mean is, I don't think Sunak cares that much about women, nor men, nor the trans community - if he did he'd have used more sophisticated language to talk about the matter. And although I might agree with him in principle, it was a dog-whistle - and I certainly wouldn't choose him to champion the cause.

I don't think he's in touch with anything other than fighting to retain his position, and the country's accounts ledger.

Glorianny the people you designate as 'intersex' are either male or female, there is no third sex. DNA testing can identify every single human as either male or female regardless of whether their sexual development proceeded along the usual lines. By you saying they're not male or female, you are saying they are neither, it's you that is 'othering' them.