Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

You know that, and I know that, but apparently the superior intelligence 'gender ideologists' tell us otherwise.

I like how you’ve explained that Rosie51. Your last paragraph in particular. But I’m puzzled. transwomen lesbians attracted to other transwomen lesbians . . . would be like homosexual transmen being attracted to homosexual transmen.
Anything else is heterosexual.

Of course this all comes from Stonewall's assertion that lesbian women and gay men should be "gender" attracted. Lesbians and Gays are homosexual........homo means the same....sexual obviously refers to sex.....so same sex attracted. Equally heterosexuals are.... hetero meaning other.... the other sex attracted. Bisexual is self explanatory, bi from the Latin meaning both, attracted to both sexes. How anyone can determine somebody's internal 'gender identification' is beyond me. Humans are good at determining the sex of those they meet, evolution has equipped us to read the smallest of clues.
I'd be more inclined to believe in 'gender attraction' if transwomen lesbians actively sought out, or were at least happy with, other transwomen lesbians.

I posted before adding that the two scenarios are very similar - women being blamed and dismissed as lesbians because a specific man who was harassing them didn't trigger any desire in them, and lesbians being blamed and targeted because they wanted an event that did not include a particular type of men - ones who were self-identifying as women.

Thanks, Elegran. It's so dismissive to write it off as 'fighting one another' - it goes so much deeper than that.

Lesbians had no quarrel with transwomen - they just didn't fancy them, since they are attracted to female bodies, not the bodies of males who have labelled themselves as women.

In the past, males who discovered that a female they fancied didn't fancy them and didn't want to fall immediately into bed with them would say that she must be either a lesbian, or frigid.

Now a second speed-dating event organised by lesbians and for lesbians has been disrupted by ostentatiously male-bodied transwomen. They had caused the first attempt to run it to be cancelled because those attending asked the transwomen to stay away - as they didn't fancy them. (Since the whole point of a speed-dating event is to meet a lot of people you DO fancy, that seems to me a perfectly reasonably request.)

That isn't two minority groups fighting one another. It is trans activists claiming that it is their right to have sex with lesbians because they choose to, while denying the lesbians the right to choose who they have sex with and who they don't.

Lesbians are, by definition, attracted to women, and transwomen are, by definition, male. Why should they be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that transwomen are women? Specially when they have a visible erection?

Sorry - badly worded. That should say 'why should lesbians be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that TWAW? Specially when the transwoman in question has a visible erection?'

LizzieDrip

*Which fighting minority groups are you talking about*

Lesbians and trans women.

Obviously I don't know your sexuality, but if you went to a dating event in the hope of meeting someone you would be attracted to, would you want to find people from whichever is the 'wrong' sex for you? And how would you feel if someone who was clearly the wrong sex told you that no - they are the sex they want to be, and if you don't fancy them you must be transphobic?

If you are bisexual that might not matter, presumably, but otherwise it would be a waste of your time, particularly if the event had been advertised as being what you were looking for.

Lesbians are, by definition, attracted to women, and transwomen are, by definition, male. Why should they be expected to 'be kind' and pretend that transwomen are women? Specially when they have a visible erection?

It's not a case of squabbling - it's a case of not letting a determined group of extremists take away something that a group of women had organised for themselves.

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about

Lesbians and trans women.

Doodledog

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about? Last time I looked, women don't form a minority group, and they are the ones suffering most.

So true, but so sad.

My sentiments exactly.
All this gender shite does my head in.
You are what you were born as, male or female, no ifs or buts.

FWIW, those doing the most damage to the TG community are the minority of individuals who are out on the street waving threatening placards at TERFS. And they, the most volatile, are MEN. And men are not a minority group.

LizzieDrip

I repeat Doodledog, minority groups fighting against each other plays into the hands of the bigots - doing their work for them. You’re entitled to your opinion on the subject; I’m entitled to mine.

That accusation - playing into the hands of the bigots - is frequently levelled at those who openly want to debate the position taken by TW, that TWAW (though there are exceptions to this belief among TW).

As women, we are affected, what you are implying is that we should keep quiet. When women fought for their rights - going as far back as the right to a vote - it angered and stirred-up the bigots, particularly men, some of whom punished women for daring to challenge their supremacy.

Yes, the RW media will stir the pot, and it's a terrible state of affairs that we have such a biased media. The alternative is that we capitulate, keep quiet and just allow events to unfold. We cannot do that. The bigots have always and will always exploit things for their own ends - but we are not responsible for their bigotry, and they should be called out on it, rather than us being intimidated to shut up because of it.

Some transgender individuals use this reason to close down debate, they should be challenging them not trying to silence people with emotional blackmail who have a legitimate grievance about their rights being infringed.

I didn't say you weren't. Shall I repeat that, to give it more weight? I didn't say you are not entitled to an opinion, and I know I am entitled to mine .

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about? Last time I looked, women don't form a minority group, and they are the ones suffering most.

I repeat Doodledog, minority groups fighting against each other plays into the hands of the bigots - doing their work for them. You’re entitled to your opinion on the subject; I’m entitled to mine.

LizzieDrip

This is all so sad. Minority groups, both of which suffer / have suffered from oppression and bigotry, arguing against each other. Playing right into the hands of the homophobic bigots!

That would be true if people like the man crashing the lesbian dating event are really transwomen.

Much of the opposition is because many of them aren't - they are misogynistic men who are taking advantage of the self-id thing, which means that there are no longer any conditions attached to becoming a transperson, to humiliate and dominate women. Many Trans Rights Activists are homophobic bigots, who believe that homosexuality doesn't exist, and that same-sex attraction should be reframed as same-gender attraction, which means that lesbians should find trams women attractive because they have espoused the female gender. They also encourage boys and young men to believe that they are 'in the wrong body' if they are 'too feminine', so the number of gay men is also reduced - they become transwomen. They have infiltrated LGB groups which have now become LGBT, to include 'trans' under the gay umbrella, when 'gender' has nothing to do with sexuality, and being gay is all about that.

What is so sad is that anyone speaking out about women's rights or gay rights is accused of the bigotry that they are fighting against.

I can’t bear the current Tories. But they are the only mainstream party stating the blinking obvious about men and women.
Starmer, being the lawyer that he is, fudged it by saying 99% of women don’t have a penis 😡
As for libdems and greens, they are lost to the trans ideology.

I suppose it would be fairly safe to say that the transgender community do not speak with one voice only - apart from that which asks for respect of their human rights (which should be academic). Of course, the most vociferous get the most coverage and, you can be sure that certain media will find the most aggressive, loudest and shout-iest for their column inches.

But - what of those, whose names I've forgotten but not their words... "I'm a transwoman, not a woman"? Where, for the sake of balance, are their voices? Have they been drowned out? I've heard more than one or two... more 'in depth', more thoughtful, observations on what it means (to them) to be a trans woman. Are they regarded as 'heretics 'by the main body of trans women - or indeed the whole trans community?

Another aspect that I would mention; when Jenni Murray said back in 2017 that "trans women should not call themselves real women", Rachel Cohen (campaigns director of Stonewall) said in her rebuttal, “Being trans is not about ‘sex changes’ and clothes – it’s about an innate sense of self. To imply anything other than this is reductive and hurtful to many trans people who are only trying to live life as their authentic selves.".

This is an interesting comment, because the 'Isla Brysons' and others who've made headlines (for all the wrong reasons), together with the "I'm-more-of-a-woman-than-she-will-ever-be" (quote from a transwoman when condemning her female opponent) - frequently appear as the stereotypical woman... blonde wig, pink lipstick, pink nails, not infrequently rather plastered with make-up, dangly ear rings etc... This, to me, smacks of what some straight men regard as a desirable, 'sexy' woman - it is a man's idea of female attractiveness. How does that square with Cohen's "innate sense of self" that is not "all about sex-changes and clothes"? How many women on here - and I know, we are older women - but how many relate to that image of womanhood? It's the stereotype of a woman isn't it - so what, actually, is the man identifying with if not his idea of what a sexy woman looks like? Which begs the question, do these particular trans women have even the faintest idea of womanhood or what a woman is? In other words, as we often say on here, being a woman is about more than wearing a dress and lippy.

Finally (if you've got this far) - do men who decide they ultimately identify as women, forget all the privileges they had in their former lives, as men? As 'women' - are they prepared to take a back seat in the corporate world, have things 'mansplained' to them, be afraid to sometimes be in isolated, empty streets late at night, be subjected to pestering and harassment, even during daylight hours, etc?

Certainly, the 'shouty', placard-waving, "suck my girl-dick" ones aren't - because what they are doing is continuing the typical misogynistic behaviour of the privileged male. Is this what they were like, prior to identifying as a woman?

Glorianny
the right of every individual to dress and present as they wish.

Nobody has the right to dress and present as they wish.
Unless you’re saying that you endorse the right to appear like the rainbow monkey complete with genitalia that appeared at Redbridge library, or the one that presented itself on X this morning of a man in a very close fitting pink dress with his erect penis clearly outlined beneath the material and the usual you can’t stop me heading.

The problem with trans and clothing is not really to do with the clothing, it’s to do with the lying that goes with it.
A fully equipped man dressing in stereotypical women’s clothing and going into female pool changing rooms is a liar and has no consideration for the women he aspires to be.
Endorse lying-your choice. Where do you draw the line about accepting lying as right?

This is all so sad. Minority groups, both of which suffer / have suffered from oppression and bigotry, arguing against each other. Playing right into the hands of the homophobic bigots!

twitter.com/dnalerinrehtron/status/1710690536779088244
They failed to get Jenny Watson's lesbian event cancelled this time so went for disruption instead. Nasty bullies one and all. Why are these people so threatened by females meeting other females in an exclusively female group?

Like in the story of The Emperor's new clothes, we need more people to say "but he's got no clothes on"

I think a lot of us know individuals who are trans or non-binary, but those individuals do not represent the 'movement' as a whole, and do not insist on forcing themselves into places where they aren't wanted. I sort of understand how that can colour people's judgement, but it's not really reasonable to use the argument 'I know one pleasant and harmless transperson, so you should allow anyone who says they are a woman to go anywhere, regardless of whether it makes you uncomfortable or scared.

I also know two so-called 'intersex' people - one online and the other in person. Both are female, with female gametes - their male attributes are along the same lines as someone with an extra toe or finger. That is not enough to make judgements about other 'intersex' (both hate the term, incidentally) people, but they both feel that gender is something different entirely.

There is some research here which suggests that 'the statistical rarity [of someone having functional male and female gametes] is overwhelmingly minute', and this also suggests that the existence of 'intersex' people is not as nuanced as it may seem. People are either one sex or the other, even if they have residual organs from the sex that they are not.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10265381/#:~:text=Regarding%20whether%20it%20would%20be,do%20possess%20such%20a%20combination.

Native American and other cultures that recognise different 'genders' are structured differently from ours, and they do not suggest that changing 'gender' equates to changing sex. Many people (myself included) would like to see a situation where transpeople were accepted as transpeople, so would be able to live exactly as they liked, but not be assumed to be a sex they are not. So transwomen are not women, but transwomen, and it should be an offence for them to impose themselves into female spaces. The problem is when they do insist that they are a different sex.

Yes, men are men and women are women generally speaking.

But if an adult genuinely feels that he or she has been born in the wrong body and are willing to go through a sex change operation, then in my opinion, they should after the treatment is complete be entitled to a new identity, and to be accepted as members of the sex they have chosen.

Anyone who cross-dresses, or goes around calling themselves by a male name while physically a woman, or a female name while physically a man may do so in my book too, but must abide by the rules that apply to their physical gender.

In other words use male toilets, if they have male genitalia, serve in the services as men, be imprisoned in men's prisons, admitted to male wards in hospiital, and obviously, a woman who goes around using a male identity although physically a woman must expect to be regarded as a woman in all the categories I listed above.

This applies to adults. Children should not be encouraged to believe that they should have been boys, if girls, or girls, if boys. Small children commonly do want to be the opposite sex, while still too young to know what that really means.

I find it reprehensible that some doctors today encourage parents to "accept" a small child's desire to be what they are not. The age of legal majority is soon enough to start accomodating a genuine desire to change sex.

A very simplistic statement which appeals because it makes it easier to think, or in reality not think, about a complex issue.