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Rishi Sunak and other Tories attack 15 minute cities

(175 Posts)
Callistemon21 Sat 07-Oct-23 20:20:29

MaizieD

Callistemon21

MaizieD

What else is causing difficulties, Callistemon?

Hospital parking for a start, MaizieD.

It is horrendous, the main hospital leased a car park which was always full too, but that is no longer the case.

It's necessary to arrive at least an hour before an appointment in order to get a space. Disabled spaces? Six, I think!

Is this something to do with an initiative to get people out of their cars, or is it just the problem common to all parts of the UK, that hospital car parking isn't always adequate for the demand?

I think hospital parking is vital as most people who need to attend hospital are unable to spend all day travelling on public transport for an appointment or treatment.

Callistemon21 Sat 07-Oct-23 20:15:08

MaizieD

^ I mentioned that a previous thread was based on that assumption, but that this one is saying the opposite.^

But the previous thread was based on an assumption that had no basis in fact. Which I believe was pointed out at the time.

Try this:

Asked if people would ever be restricted from leaving an area within a 15-minute city, Moreno replied "no".

www.dezeen.com/2023/03/14/carlos-moreno-interview-15-minute-city-creator/#

This poor man who had a good idea for urban planning is being vilified for something he has never proposed.

I think it's an excellent idea to work towards. It isn't destroying choice, it's offering more choice.

The concept is good.

Our local hospital used to provide more services but they have been centralised.

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 20:14:47

Callistemon21

MaizieD

What else is causing difficulties, Callistemon?

Hospital parking for a start, MaizieD.

It is horrendous, the main hospital leased a car park which was always full too, but that is no longer the case.

It's necessary to arrive at least an hour before an appointment in order to get a space. Disabled spaces? Six, I think!

Is this something to do with an initiative to get people out of their cars, or is it just the problem common to all parts of the UK, that hospital car parking isn't always adequate for the demand?

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 20:11:12

^ I mentioned that a previous thread was based on that assumption, but that this one is saying the opposite.^

But the previous thread was based on an assumption that had no basis in fact. Which I believe was pointed out at the time.

Try this:

Asked if people would ever be restricted from leaving an area within a 15-minute city, Moreno replied "no".

www.dezeen.com/2023/03/14/carlos-moreno-interview-15-minute-city-creator/#

This poor man who had a good idea for urban planning is being vilified for something he has never proposed.

I think it's an excellent idea to work towards. It isn't destroying choice, it's offering more choice.

Callistemon21 Sat 07-Oct-23 19:51:56

MaizieD

What else is causing difficulties, Callistemon?

Hospital parking for a start, MaizieD.

It is horrendous, the main hospital leased a car park which was always full too, but that is no longer the case.

It's necessary to arrive at least an hour before an appointment in order to get a space. Disabled spaces? Six, I think!

Doodledog Sat 07-Oct-23 19:38:07

MaizieD

Why is everyone writing as though the local provision of shops and services compels you to stay within the 15 minute zone?

That isn't the idea at all as far as I can make out.

I wasn't - I mentioned that a previous thread was based on that assumption, but that this one is saying the opposite. My understanding is that nothing is close to being decided - if, indeed, the schemes are introduced at all - but that there are various possible options. My own opinion is that people will indeed use the facilities they prefer - just as people now travel to other towns for shopping, or even for coffee or a change of scenery. I think it would be good for people to have the option of staying local if they want to, but where that doesn't pay, businesses will leave or offer an inferior service, and inequality would increase.

M0nica Sat 07-Oct-23 19:33:42

That is the point I have been making MaizieD. people will us the services they prefer, whereever they may be, so the fact that there is one of everything within 15 minutes doesn't mean that that is the one people will choose to use.

Ilovecheese Sat 07-Oct-23 19:30:30

MaizieD

Why is everyone writing as though the local provision of shops and services compels you to stay within the 15 minute zone?

That isn't the idea at all as far as I can make out.

Well quite! But that is what some conspiracy theorists are implying

Ilovecheese Sat 07-Oct-23 19:29:22

But there would be nothing to stop people going further afield if they wanted to. There would be nothing to stop mingling between the different districts.
I also live in an area that has most facilities within reach of 15 minutes walk. My area is one of the most desirable areas in the country (according to Phil and Kirsty) . Areas can be vibrant and diverse and still have the main facilities within a 15 minute walk.

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 19:25:41

Why is everyone writing as though the local provision of shops and services compels you to stay within the 15 minute zone?

That isn't the idea at all as far as I can make out.

Doodledog Sat 07-Oct-23 19:15:55

It's a great idea in theory, but as M0nica says, it's unlikely to work in practice, for the reasons she describes. I'd also be interested to know what sort of facilities will be in place in different areas - currently edge of town housing estates often have no facilities, or a small supermarket with limited ranges and high prices. Will bigger ones suddenly spring up, or will it still be Mace/Spar in poorer areas and Waitrose in richer ones? That would increase, or at least perpetuate existing inequalities.

How are doctors' surgeries going to be staffed if they all have to be within 15 minutes of their patients? Mine is round the corner, but the growth of the town I live in means that the number of patients has quadrupled since I registered. I'd love there to be others so that existing patients could still get appointments (and the newcomers too, of course grin) but we are down to only part-time GPs as it is - where are the new ones going to come from? Similarly schools are full to bursting, even when children live more than a 15 minute walk away - everyone would benefit if there were more schools, each with fewer pupils, but where would they be built, and how would they be staffed?

At my age, I'd happily spend a lot of time within a radius that constitutes a 15 minute walk from my house. In many ways I do already, as I live in a town centre with facilities all around me, but I'd have found that stifling when I was young, and I'm not sure it's healthy for people to mix mainly with fairly immediate neighbours, and stay in the same small area most of the time. More walking would be good for physical health, but everyone knowing who's who and everything about them is often bad for mental health, particularly for young people, who need to make mistakes that don't follow them about.

I'd rather see investment in public transport, preferably free or heavily subsidised, so that it is a preferable alternative to car driving, and people can still move around where and when they want to, and live more varied lives than staying in a small 'zone' would provide.

There was a thread on here a while ago on which it was suggested that there would be limitations on how often people could travel outside of their own 'zone'. This one is suggesting that that thread was based on a false premise - I don't know much about it, but either way, I'm not sure that something like that can be a 'one size fits all' thing.

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 18:29:45

What else is causing difficulties, Callistemon?

Callistemon21 Sat 07-Oct-23 17:57:58

He doesn't deserve vilification, every idea is worth proper consideration.

I do know where Mark Harper is coming from, though, as his constituency borders Wales and it is not just the 20mph limits that are causing difficulties with travel this side of the border.

Callistemon21 Sat 07-Oct-23 17:50:29

It all sounds Utopian but we are never going to have all the shops we need within a 15 minute walk/cycle/bus ride from our homes.
Transport would certainly have to improve drastically or many more people would become housebound.

Niche businesses and shops may open up but often they are targeted at tourists, not providing the necessities of everyday life.

Huge shopping malls, large hospitals, schools catering for 2,000+ pupils have been built over the years. Is the plan to demolish them and rebuild on a smaller, localised scale?

Katie59 Sat 07-Oct-23 17:38:34

If we are to reduce CO2 we have to reduce car journeys, currently if it’s only 10 mins walk most will take the car. Most of the reduction in CO 2 has been due to government action and very little by consumers, who continue to do exactly what they choose when they choose.

M0nica Sat 07-Oct-23 17:08:35

I think that the idea of 15 minute cities is an idea that works in principal, but not practice.

For example, what about supermarkets? Supposing you have one within 15 minutes walk, but do not want to use it? What about doctors, dentists, schools etc, for the 15 minute city to work you need to restrict peoples choice to using what is with 15 minutes.

We live in a very different world to the one of 50 years ago, people only took local jobs, most shops were in town centres, but we now live distributed lives. A couple buy a house because it is near both their jobs, but then one changes their job and now as an hour to travel to work. What do they do? what if they have children in school?

I am not against 15 minute cities, I simply do not see how they are going to work because i think far too many people will for a wide range of justifiable and unjustifiable reasons, choose to ignore the service provider within 15 minutes preferring to use a different one further away.

choughdancer Sat 07-Oct-23 16:50:44

This has been being spread by conspiracy theory believers for some time now, in addition to anti-vax, climate change denying and not believing that Covid is real.
They really truly believe it, and the government, in its clutching at straws, is clutching at very dangerous straws now, which could easily set light to these toxic beliefs. There is a string of things that the government has recently said are a threat, including a meat tax, a plethora of recycling bins and open borders, none of which have been proposed by any other party.

I very much like the idea of 15 minute cities, with services and shops being reasonably close to everyone without having to travel long distances for most things. I think it would help the environment, reduce pollution and reduce stress. I do not believe that it is a conspiracy to stop anyone travelling when they want or need to, or to give up cars completely!

I feel very sorry for Carlos Moreno, as I did for Professor Chris Whitty, who was also vilified by the conspiracy theorists that I follow.

ronib Sat 07-Oct-23 14:08:33

If Rue Daguerre in Paris is an example of easy living under the 15 minute rule, then only an idiot would deny that this is a good, desirable way of life.

Dinahmo Sat 07-Oct-23 13:56:28

Ilovecheese

Please tell me that no one on here believes that the local council can tell you how many times you are allowed to go to the shops.

Tory ministers have said it so of course it's going to be true!

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 13:43:07

Ilovecheese

Please tell me that no one on here believes that the local council can tell you how many times you are allowed to go to the shops.

Or that you won't be allowed to leave the 15minute zone. They'll track you by that chip that Bill Gates had incorporated in the covid vaccines...🤔

Ilovecheese Sat 07-Oct-23 13:38:36

Please tell me that no one on here believes that the local council can tell you how many times you are allowed to go to the shops.

ronib Sat 07-Oct-23 13:27:47

MaizieD as a young person, your definition of hell might have changed over the years? Exactly at what point did you reach Hades? Just wondering….. and what is so great about where you find yourself now?

Oreo Sat 07-Oct-23 13:27:43

As ever, two extremes of thinking here.One extreme is thinking that 15 min cities are totally awful and another is in the case of the Oxford residents who are being derided here for being worried.Having now read about the city of Oxford and the council there and what they have been doing and proposing I understand the residents feelings. Streets which have become no go areas for cars and a council that blocked needed parking at a hospital and thought ill people and worried relatives should take the bus there instead.It’s all very well wanting to go green but has to be done with care and some feeling about the lives of everyday people.

MaizieD Sat 07-Oct-23 13:13:02

I think that people are trying to whip up an enormous fuss about nothing. And the tories are gaslighting away like mad...

In my rather distant youth we had a small supermarket, a butchers, 2 newsagents, one of which was almost a general store, fish & chip shop, laundry/drycleaners and a local dairy. Primary school, too. Plus two or three pubs.. Doctors & Dentists a short bus ride away. That was in the suburbs of a medium size town. Town centre was in walking distance or short, cheap, bus ride.

What hell it was...

Dinahmo Sat 07-Oct-23 12:40:01

A Sorbonne professor, Carlos Moreno, has formulated the idea of 15 Minute Cities. These will be somewhere where " where inhabitants have access to all the services they need to live, learn and thrive within their immediate vicinity - and shares ideas for making urban areas adapt to humans, not the other way around"

According to the NY Times Moreno is now Public Enemy No 1 because of the widespread belief that he wants to ban cars. He does not but he hopes that by people being able to walk or cycle for 15 minutes to get to what they need dependency on cars will be reduced.

This is taken from Forbes Magazine:
After coining the term “15-minute city” Moreno was invited to give talks internationally. But with this growing profile—and the swift acceptance of his simple-to-grasp defining concept—he became the target of hate. He is often on the receiving end of personal abuse on social media.

“They insult me, call me human trash, Neo-fascist or a rotten Latino,” he told me by email last year. He has critics from the left and the right, but in an all too typical Venn diagram of tinfoilhattedness they share climate denial, downplay of Covid harms, and anti-vaxxer beliefs.

“Their lies are enormous,” he exclaimed.

“You will be locked in your neighborhood; cameras will signal who can go out; if your mother lives in another neighborhood, you will have to ask for permission to see her and so on.”

He added, in disgust, they “sometimes post pictures of concentration camps.”

“The conspiracists see a big global agreement,” he said.

“As the UN-Habitat, the World Economic Forum, the C40 Global Cities Climate Network, and the Federation of United Local Governments, among others, have supported the [15-Minute-City] concept, it feeds their fantasies that I am involved in the ‘invisible leadership’ of the world.”

Moreno has been shocked to see his concept derided by the U.K. government, with the U.K. transport secretary trashing 15-Minute Cities in his speech today at the annual Conservative Party conference in Manchester.

“Right across our country, there is a Labour-backed movement to make cars harder to use, to make driving more expensive, and to remove your freedom to get from A to B how you want,” Transport Secretary Mark Harper told the conference.

“I am calling time on the misuse of so-called 15-minute cities,” he added.

“What is sinister, and what we shouldn’t tolerate, is the idea that local councils can decide how often you go to the shops, and that they can ration who uses the roads and when, and that they police it all with CCTV,” Harper said.

According to The Sun, Prime Minister Sunak “takes aim at so-called ‘“15 Minute Cities’” to make everyday essentials bike friendly - vowing to make sure drivers are not ‘aggressively restricted’.”

“Associating the 15-Minute City again with so-called liberty-restricting measures is tantamount to aligning with the most radical and anti-democratic elements of this movement.”

This is from Politico:

Broadly, the idea is to cut down on long commutes and car emissions, and improve people's quality of life by ensuring they have access to quality services where they live.
That's not the way it's being seen in Oxford.

News that the city council adopted a plan to embrace the 15-minute city model prompted fierce backlash, with local groups and public figures alleging that authorities planned to restrict residents to their immediate neighborhoods and strictly police their movements. A rally attend by thousands in Oxford last month claimed to be protesting plans to reconfigure the city as a "Stalinist-style, closed city" and the eventual enslavement of local citizens.

The outrage has been fanned by popular right-wing media figures and politicians, who seized on the issue as an outrageous example of government overreach.

"You will only have 15 minutes of freedom here in the U.K.," said the far-right media personality Katy Hopkins, who compared the scheme to pandemic-era lockdowns and claimed authorities will use facial recognition technology to police residents.

News commentator Mark Dolan denounced the plan as "dystopian," and similarly warned that the city planned to use "numberplate recognition cameras, installed everywhere" to create "a surveillance culture that would make Pyongyang envious."

The issue even made its way to the House of Commons, where Tory MP Nick Fletcher described 15-minute cities as an "international socialist concept" whose ultimate purpose was to "take away personal freedoms."

Although these alarmist claims of mass surveillance and loss of individual freedom are indeed far-fetched, the anxiety and unrest unleashed in Oxford fits into a broader picture of local pushback across Europe against green measures that are perceived as an attack on personal freedoms — particularly when they affect personal car use.

Given that most people are used to our high streets becoming deserts with only charity shops and cafes and not much else, surely the idea of the facilities that we need being much closer to our homes, surely the 15 minute city is a good idea?

What do you think?