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Previous Tory voters

(220 Posts)
fancythat Fri 20-Oct-23 11:12:20

This is what I wrote when someone said what they thought the reason was why people who had previously voted Conservative, did not do so this time.
"It's simply the effect of Tory policy of not spending on education, health or welfare"

No it is not.
It is quite far from that.

I do struggle to quantify quite what it is wrong.
Their action or inaction on immigration, net zero, policing and defence can be added to that list too.

I wouldnt count myself as wanting less spent on welfare maybe, but other previous tory voters may be in that category.

Also, many want less spent on overseas aid.
On pronoun and the like stuff. etc.

I cant speak for all previous tory voters, but as for myself, I was saying the other day to someone, I could quite happily make many cuts in the current tory budget. On mnay different things.

Not sure where I stand on tax, personally.

What are your reasons?

Freya5 Sat 28-Oct-23 13:48:40

DaisyAnneReturns

So basically fancythat, what you want is an extreme right-wing government that doesn't do democracy.

Isn't that what they have been trying to get to for 13 years? And isn't that what people are turning their back on in favour of democracy?

You keep pushing these policies. I will personally be very glad to see the death of the party of wealth driven Oligarchy and the more you push your chosen policies the more, I believe, that is likely to happen.

Extreme right, really. Mussolini was extreme right, cant see any of that ideology in this country.

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 28-Oct-23 13:25:52

Indeed it can be Maizie - but there’s a huge difference between the cost of prosecuting a sophisticated tax evader (into which huge resources are put, and to good effect) and the cost of prosecuting the owner of the local factory who is paying less than minimum wage.

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 13:09:10

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m far from naive wwm. HMRC may be a creature of government and they work within a statutory framework but the government does not direct their decision to prosecute.

No, they just limit their ability to do so by underfunding them...

You, of all people, must be aware that prosecution (and the investigation leading up to it) is a very expensive business..

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 13:06:47

rosie1959

MaizieD

A bit of responsibility on the employee also applies to report any underpayments.

And how many employees struggling on poverty wages are going to be brave enough to do that?

With such a buoyant jobs market at the moment the employees certainly have more choice.

This 'buoyant jobs market' seems a bit like Schrodinger's jobs market at the moment.

If we have supposedly full employment (bearing in mind that the govt. criteria for being 'in employment' is working 2 hours per fortnight) why are so many people in work struggling with low pay and part time hours?

Scarcity of workers should lead to higher wages being offered to secure them and fewer people in low paid work...

Luckygirl3 Sat 28-Oct-23 13:02:21

A bit of integrity would be a good start. Oh and some honesty, as far as our current political system will allow.

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 28-Oct-23 12:58:25

I’m far from naive wwm. HMRC may be a creature of government and they work within a statutory framework but the government does not direct their decision to prosecute.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 28-Oct-23 12:57:26

Proscribes!

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 12:57:08

Germanshepherdsmum

HMRC is comprised of civil servants. Their actions are overseen by the Professional Standards Committee. They are not directed by the government.

Err, where does the tax legislation which they implement come from?

Whitewavemark2 Sat 28-Oct-23 12:55:26

Germanshepherdsmum

HMRC is comprised of civil servants. Their actions are overseen by the Professional Standards Committee. They are not directed by the government.

Bit naive if you don’t mind me saying so.

The government minister directs the focus, controls resources and passes legislation that prescribes civil service actions etc.

rosie1959 Sat 28-Oct-23 12:48:33

MaizieD

^A bit of responsibility on the employee also applies to report any underpayments.^

And how many employees struggling on poverty wages are going to be brave enough to do that?

With such a buoyant jobs market at the moment the employees certainly have more choice.

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 28-Oct-23 12:17:33

HMRC is comprised of civil servants. Their actions are overseen by the Professional Standards Committee. They are not directed by the government.

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 12:14:05

A bit of responsibility on the employee also applies to report any underpayments.

And how many employees struggling on poverty wages are going to be brave enough to do that?

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 12:12:14

Germanshepherdsmum

Well it’s not down to the government! HMRC.

Is not HMRC a government department, directed by the government via legislation?

A government department that has been starved of funds just like all other government agencies? Can they even afford to be chasing up and prosecuting the underpayers along with all their other responsibilities?

gangy5 Sat 28-Oct-23 11:52:18

Returning to the subject of this thread Previous Tory Voters
--- I have been a Tory voter for 6 decades and am now to become a previous Tory voter. Looking back I 'm not at all sure what my reasons have been that have made me a steadfast supporter of the party. Certainly their performance over the past 13 years has been abysmal.
I also am not planning to vote Labour who are now not differing that much from the Tories. I can see that Kier Starmer is a principled man but unfortunately is lacking in qualities to make a good Prime Minister.
It is a pitty that voting has now been reduced to this or that!!
Like many------I don't want either.

rosie1959 Sat 28-Oct-23 11:23:48

All payroll now runs in real time so an under payment of the minimum wage would be picked up. A bit of responsibility on the employee also applies to report any underpayments.

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 28-Oct-23 11:15:01

Well it’s not down to the government! HMRC.

MaizieD Sat 28-Oct-23 11:09:20

Germanshepherdsmum

They are committing a criminal offence and should be prosecuted.

Who is going to report and prosecute them?

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 28-Oct-23 09:56:58

They are committing a criminal offence and should be prosecuted.

Grantanow Sat 28-Oct-23 09:47:09

Germanshepherdsmum

Employers are obliged by law to provide a written contract of employment and to pay at least the minimum wage. Some don’t and, having legislated for these matters, I don’t see what more the government is supposed to do. There was much discussion about zero hours contracts a while ago and it transpired that many people found them convenient and didn’t want them to be banned.

Surely employers who don't are committing an offence and should be prosecuted. Or did the Tories simply leave it as a civil matter so that employers could not be criminalised?

fancythat Sat 28-Oct-23 08:56:32

DaisyAnneReturns

So basically fancythat, what you want is an extreme right-wing government that doesn't do democracy.

Isn't that what they have been trying to get to for 13 years? And isn't that what people are turning their back on in favour of democracy?

You keep pushing these policies. I will personally be very glad to see the death of the party of wealth driven Oligarchy and the more you push your chosen policies the more, I believe, that is likely to happen.

I thought I partially understaood this post, and now realise I dont.

Like someone else on here, I wonder whether different phrases and words mean different things to different people?

Do you think Thatcher would be called extreme right wing government nowadays?
I think at heart I am a Thatcherite[again, if that is the right word which may well mean different things to different people]. that is, I had a look recently at some of the things she said[not counting her last 2 years in office] and find myself agreeing with much of it.

And I am totally unsure what democracy means nowadays.
I thought it just meant people vote, and the governement is then democratic.

I didnt understand your 3rd paragraph at all.
I am starting to feel out of the loop as regards the current meanings of political words. Perhaps it is just me.

fancythat Sat 28-Oct-23 08:50:36

Sorry I havent been back to this thread in a while.
Real life sort of got in the way.

And sorry winterwhite I will do this at some point too. OP, please tell us where you would "quite happily make many cuts in the current tory budget".

M0nica Sat 28-Oct-23 08:34:49

I think many people are unaware of the number of workers in this country who are not given a work contract, are on zero hours arrangements and are paid below the minimum wage.

This is a crime. As is theft, injuring someone, domestic abuse etc. is it being suggested that if the government doesn't hunt out every criminal and prosecute them they are complicit in the crime?

Three local food businesses have closed in my area, but for different reasons, the turkey farmer rented his land and the land was wanted back for housebuilding, ill health and staff shortages contributed to one and energy costs and rocketing wages as businesses fought to find trained staff did for the other.

During lockdown DD got paid furlough money, but her employer eventually went down as a direct consequence of Brexit. They were part of the process that got money from the EU Horizon Scientific research fund to research centres in the UK and as we know, despite promises, it is only in the last few months that the UK has finally agreed re-access to these funds. That delay put hundreds of researchers out of jobs.

All these silly 'class' descriptions. Could someone tell me exactly what makes someone 'working' or 'middle' class.

What about my self-employed kitchen fitter, whom we know well. He, like many other local tradesmen lives in a large and pleasant house, has holidays abroad and a good standard of living, not very different to my children who are in academia and management consultancy and could not afford to buy his house.

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 27-Oct-23 22:28:20

Employers are obliged by law to provide a written contract of employment and to pay at least the minimum wage. Some don’t and, having legislated for these matters, I don’t see what more the government is supposed to do. There was much discussion about zero hours contracts a while ago and it transpired that many people found them convenient and didn’t want them to be banned.

gangy5 Fri 27-Oct-23 22:01:58

I think many people are unaware of the number of workers in this country who are not given a work contract, are on zero hours arrangements and are paid below the minimum wage.
In past years Labour has supported the working class and currently I am not detecting much sign of that.

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 27-Oct-23 21:48:15

Working for minimum wage (anything less is illegal) is not slave labour.