Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

Rosie51

I despair of all the deaths, but if Hamas hadn't carried out their abominable attacks on November 7th, this escalation wouldn't be happening. I would like a cease fire if Hamas could be trusted to respect it, and if they freed the hostages that would be a start for negotiations.
Glorianny what would you regard as a 'proportionate response' by the Israelis to the November 7th attack? How could they have responded to the barbaric killings and the taking of hostages that would meet with your approval? Would you approve of any physical retaliation or were they supposed to just voice their anger? Hamas are neither ignorant or inhuman does betray exactly where your sympathy lies and suggests not one iota is for innocent Israelis.

I don't think the Israelis are inhuman and I don't think Hamas are inhuman.
As for a 'proportionate response' there isn't one of course, how can there be? I suppose if you believe in an eye for an eye then perhaps over 1000 Palestinians should have been lined up to be slaughtered by any Israelis who wanted revenge.
But that wouldn't have solved the problem either.

Israel has to accept that like any power which has annexed or colonised land it is going to have to hand something back in order to achieve peace.

The spokeswoman for British Jews on QT last night spoke about International intervention to create a two state solution. I think the first step towards that would be Israel complying with resolution 242 and withdrawing from occupied territories. The PLO recognised the resolution some time ago. It would be the beginning of a two state solution.

As it is no matter how many people are killed the ideas of Hamas will remain and there will be more recruits.

German Vice Chancellor

How many wars have the Israelis won? (3 including operation protective edge when 2,000 Palestinians were killed) There's been numerous conflicts just short of war and 2021-now in the West bank there's been constant conflict between Palestinians, illegal settlers and the IDF. Israelis must be sick of the constant insecurity. My fear is that Israel will win this war but yet again lose the peace. Israel is a small country with a big army well supplied with weapons from the US, but they are not immune to pressure from the countries which they rely on and IMO they should be using these diplomatic and economic pressures. Actually, I think they are but we won't know about it.

Katie59 I fear you are correct.

Hamas could release the hostages this very minute, and lay down their arms to avoid innocents losing their lives, but of course they will not…

Vintagewhine

Does wiping out Palestinians in Gaza help to stop Hamas or create more hatred? Whilst there will always be extremists, most Israelis and Palestinians just want to live a decent peaceful life so the world has to help them. That's why a diplomatic/ political solution has to be found. This thread is a good example of people just shouting the same thing at each other and no one moves their position or gives an inch, they just become more entrenched and angry.

The Palestinians elected Hamas to rule them on the promise that life would be better, however Hamas turned out to be the fools that thought they could destroy Israel.

Hamas has only brought misery to the Palestinians

We hear today that the Israelis have surrounded Gaza city and cut it off from the south, they intend to pound the rubble to dust and either kill or capture everyone inside. That is the hard reality now, they are not going to stop, civilians or defenders can surrender if they choose.

The Israelis will suffer losses but will win this war, nothing short of Hamas surrendering will stop them.

I’ve read this morning some of the reports from first responders. As well as cutting an unborn baby from its mothers womb and beheading it, a baby was burned alive in an oven.
I’m tired of posters (that’s you gloryanny and Grany) suggesting others are accusing them of anti semitism because they criticise the Israeli government. Nonsense. It’s possible to express concern about the deaths of innocent terrified people and children without calling for the state of Israel to be somehow brought to an end.

Vintagewhine

Does wiping out Palestinians in Gaza help to stop Hamas or create more hatred? Whilst there will always be extremists, most Israelis and Palestinians just want to live a decent peaceful life so the world has to help them. That's why a diplomatic/ political solution has to be found. This thread is a good example of people just shouting the same thing at each other and no one moves their position or gives an inch, they just become more entrenched and angry.

There are negotiations going on continuously, the US Secretary of State is in Israel again today. Our PM has said that he is in constant contact with Qatari Emir.

I am not an expert on warfare, but I wonder if a humanitarian pause was upheld by the IDF and Hamas in order for humanitarian aid to be distributed to the wider population of Gaza, it might help in a small way towards a longer last ceasefire?

Negotiations for a lasting peace will be ongoing for years I think, there needs to be a rebuilding of trust between the Israeli and Palestinian governments.

Does wiping out Palestinians in Gaza help to stop Hamas or create more hatred? Whilst there will always be extremists, most Israelis and Palestinians just want to live a decent peaceful life so the world has to help them. That's why a diplomatic/ political solution has to be found. This thread is a good example of people just shouting the same thing at each other and no one moves their position or gives an inch, they just become more entrenched and angry.

Vintagewhine whilst I agree with most of your post, how are the Israelis meant to live side by side in peace and harmony when everyday there is a new interview/broadcast from Hamas leaders repeating their mantra of wiping out every Jew on the planet. ?

"Proportionate response!" There is no response that could be proportionate, it's a ridiculous concept, nothing that anyone can do will bring a single person back to life or make the actions of Hamas any less horrific. As I don't believe in the concept of revenge IMO there is only one way forward and that is to try to find a way that prevents an escalation and brings people of all sides together, not puts them further apart. If anyone thinks that's "too difficult" then they should consider whether killing innocent children and Palestinians is the easier option and is more likely to succeed in wiping out terrorism. History does teach us important lessons, during the time of the Ottoman Empire, Protestants in Europe preferred living with Muslims than being burnt at the stake by the Catholics because they were not persecuted and allowed to get on with their life. There are many examples of different religions living together in harmony, surely if Israelis want to live peacefully then they need to find a solution other than wars

I despair of all the deaths, but if Hamas hadn't carried out their abominable attacks on November 7th, this escalation wouldn't be happening. I would like a cease fire if Hamas could be trusted to respect it, and if they freed the hostages that would be a start for negotiations.
Glorianny what would you regard as a 'proportionate response' by the Israelis to the November 7th attack? How could they have responded to the barbaric killings and the taking of hostages that would meet with your approval? Would you approve of any physical retaliation or were they supposed to just voice their anger? Hamas are neither ignorant or inhuman does betray exactly where your sympathy lies and suggests not one iota is for innocent Israelis.

Actually it was more a general comment about the right side of history phrase. It wasnt meant personally although I can see why you thought that. Its just one of those phrases that makes me uncomfortable, mostly as I have seen it used in deeply unpleasant ways on other issues.

Callistemon21

Did I accuse you?
No, I did not.

But if need to ask that question then that is between you and your conscience.

Well, Galaxy’s comment was regarding something I said and it appears to be regarded as anti semitic.

Did I accuse you?
No, I did not.

But if need to ask that question then that is between you and your conscience.

Callistemon21

Galaxy

Sorry but that's utterly simplistic. Right side of history is another one of those phrases which makes me want to weep. What you mean is he held the same views as me.

Very true, Galaxy

The anti-semitism from some posters makes me want to weep.

I can weep for innocent Palestinians too as I am able to weep for humanity in a non-partisan way.

So you’re accusing me of being anti semitic?

Do you know what?

I don't care at all about what you think.

What I do care about is those traumatised Israeli people who lost their loved ones in such a barbaric and horrific way.
And I care about the traumatised people in Gaza, the women and children who are also the innocents in all this.

A UN school bombed by Israel. . A British teacher trapped ., But it's all Hamas's fault.
I didn't expect an answer to my 21.39 post. But I can tell it's struck a chord!

Galaxy

Thanks for that Glorianny. I wouldnt have known that if you hadnt said it.

Every day's a school day on Gransnet.

Or a lesson in telling Granny how to suck eggs.

Thanks for that Glorianny. I wouldnt have known that if you hadnt said it.

Callistemon21

Galaxy

Sorry but that's utterly simplistic. Right side of history is another one of those phrases which makes me want to weep. What you mean is he held the same views as me.

Very true, Galaxy

The anti-semitism from some posters makes me want to weep.

I can weep for innocent Palestinians too as I am able to weep for humanity in a non-partisan way.

Attempts to label anti-Israel posts as anti-semitic are pathetic.
It is much more anti-semitic to think that all Jews support the actions of Israel or even believe in the state of Israel. Judaism has many different branches and opinions on all things vary.

I would like to know how many people it is acceptable to kill in order to wipe out Hamas?
I also wonder what those who think Israel is acting reasonably imagine will happen when the fighting stops? Do they imagine Hamas will suddenly disappear?
Every family destroyed will provide more recruits.
There isn't a terrorist organisation in history that has been destroyed by killing its members.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny how you can say that

Hamas are neither ignorant or inhuman

leaves me absolutely speechless!!!

Are you unaware of the barbaric acts that they carried out on 7/10?

How could any educated person with half an ounce of humanity have carried out those deeds.

How can the Taliban carry on against women as they do.

How does the Iranian modesty police act as they do.

Your idea of inhuman is obviously very different to most rational people.

The Muslim Fundamental Terrorist are in a totally different league…

Hamas are neither ignorant or inhuman
Being encouraged to film themselves playing with the heads of babies and children they have just beheaded?

I wouldn't like to be on the opposite side to some posters on here in real life.

The thought is terrifying.

Galaxy

Sorry but that's utterly simplistic. Right side of history is another one of those phrases which makes me want to weep. What you mean is he held the same views as me.

Very true, Galaxy

The anti-semitism from some posters makes me want to weep.

I can weep for innocent Palestinians too as I am able to weep for humanity in a non-partisan way.

Israel targeted bombed the largest refugee camp in Gaza looking for one man. Hundreds killed injured included women and children.
Say in the UK police military whatever instead of going after this one man decided to target the whole neighbourhood, hundreds killed, in what way is this sane, who in their right mind would think so.
Ceasefire
One man said he lost all his three children. So sad so senseless.

GrannyGravy13

War is brutal, every innocent death is one too many.

I have had to wave our son off to war in The Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan to name just a few over the last 33 years, along with dangerous peace keeping duties. Many of his friends and comrades didn’t return to their families.

Hamas and Hezbollah are bombing Israel, Israel is targeting the launch sites of both.

The major difference being Hezbollah is not using Lebanese citizens as human shields are not sighting it’s missiles in/near hospitals, schools or refugee camps.

Can you not see the difference?

In an area the size of Gaza people live where they can.
Let's not forget over 50 UN personnel there on entirely humanitarian roles killed as well.
Over 9000 Palestinians killed most of them women and children. There will be men queuing up to join Hamas their family already gone.
It's not only genocide, it's useless genocide, No terrorist group in history has been destroyed by killing its members.