Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

Removing them from Gaza and restoring moderate government would be progress.

Katie59

From the humanitarian viewpoint Israel is the aggressor and indefensible but what is Israel to do. The leaders of Hamas are determined to drive the Jews out of Israel and if the price of that is tens or hundreds of thousands of Palestinian lives it the price they will pay.

We know they have fired 6000 rockets into Israel which was a well prepared campaign with the attack on the music festival as a trigger point to provoke an Israeli reaction.

Is Israel to back off again and allow Hamas to become even stronger?, or fight to eliminate Hamas?

But how will they eliminate Hamas? The leaders are not in Gaza. There will be many fighters killed, but that will not eliminate the movement.

Many of its original settlers wanted a socialist state, which is why the kibbutz were set up. They were run on non-religious socialist ideas. Given the present government of Israel the conflict between the two ideas might be meaningful. Be'eri was one of the few kibbutz still run on cooperative lines, most have been privatised.

Glorianny this makes Hamas’s targeting of these kibbutzim even more tragic and inhumane.

From the humanitarian viewpoint Israel is the aggressor and indefensible but what is Israel to do. The leaders of Hamas are determined to drive the Jews out of Israel and if the price of that is tens or hundreds of thousands of Palestinian lives it the price they will pay.

We know they have fired 6000 rockets into Israel which was a well prepared campaign with the attack on the music festival as a trigger point to provoke an Israeli reaction.

Is Israel to back off again and allow Hamas to become even stronger?, or fight to eliminate Hamas?

maddyone

^It (Israel) seems to be untouchable for many reasons……^

I can’t believe that this has been written. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years!

Untouchable? Really?
They have suffered more than any other group and continue to do so.

People should stop confusing the actions of Israel with the views of Jewish people. They are not the same. Many Jews are protesting about what is happening.

They should perhaps also look at the history of the creation of the state of Israel. Many of its original settlers wanted a socialist state, which is why the kibbutz were set up. They were run on non-religious socialist ideas. Given the present government of Israel the conflict between the two ideas might be meaningful. Be'eri was one of the few kibbutz still run on cooperative lines, most have been privatised.

GrannyGravy13

Grany I admire your tenacity on this subject.

You seem to miss out one vital piece of information in all your posts, which is Hamas started this with some of the most abhorrent crimes ever to have been reported.

Israel had no choice but to attack, the other option was to sit on their hands and wait for the next attack which Hamas leaders have confirmed will continue until Israel is no more.

Once they have killed all the Jews in Israel Hamas have vowed to go after Jews wherever they are in the world.

Have you any thoughts on this?

Have you any thoughts on this?

I doubt that because, like posts on other threads, Grany's posts are cut and paste jobs, the thoughts and propaganda of other people.

I think most of us can look at the wider picture and grieve for the innocent people on both sides of this conflict.

Unlike some wars, where one side can be defined as the aggressor such as the war in Ukraine, there have been wrongdoings on both sides in this but Hamas has taken it to another level.

It (Israel) seems to be untouchable for many reasons……

I can’t believe that this has been written. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years!

Untouchable? Really?
They have suffered more than any other group and continue to do so.

Katie59

“It shocks me that some people think that making people into refugees and forcing them to leave their homes is acceptable. In any case the road south is now impassable”

They were told over 2 weeks ago to leave but Hamas wouldn’t let them, hoping that International pressure would make Israel give up - until the next time.

Please explain to me exactly how Hamas stopped them?
If you read the statements from people actually living there, they tried to leave, but the road was impassable because of craters, debris and bodies left after the bombing. Vehicles couldn't use it.
So even trying to justify what is really ethnic cleansing isn't actually possible. Nothing to do with Hamas (I thought they were all in the tunnels anyway)
Honestly the sheer illogicality of some of the beliefs on here astounds me quite as much as the inhumanity.

Once they have killed all the Jews in Israel Hamas have vowed to go after Jews wherever they are in the world.

Anyone believing it will stop at Jews is deluded and needs to seriously wake up.

Of course no one can or would condone the violence which took place in Israel, it was shocking, but it did not start out of the blue 4 weeks ago.
This is a result of decades of Palestinian oppression with youngsters throwing stones and burning tyres to hide themselves at the borders on a Friday with an inappropriately violent response from Israel which over the period has left thousands dead. This does not stop people but guarantees more of them to be recruited to the cause.
Little of this was reported by our media but it’s all there if anyone wants to find it.
When I first started following this tragic story Palestine was never named other than as ‘the territories’ and its people ‘terrorists.’ Israel has always had the power and the might and despite being called up over its behaviour many times it carries on regardless. It seems to be untouchable fir many reasons but primarily historic, which of course I understand, but that should not stop criticism if deserved.
Palestine has always been the underdog there is a huge power and wealth inbalance between the two and I can’t see anything getting better, despite the occasional heartening news of people on both sides working together and wish them well.

Grany I admire your tenacity on this subject.

You seem to miss out one vital piece of information in all your posts, which is Hamas started this with some of the most abhorrent crimes ever to have been reported.

Israel had no choice but to attack, the other option was to sit on their hands and wait for the next attack which Hamas leaders have confirmed will continue until Israel is no more.

Once they have killed all the Jews in Israel Hamas have vowed to go after Jews wherever they are in the world.

Have you any thoughts on this?

Other videos from inside kibbutzes are said to show corpses covered in rubble

Sorry to split hairs here but the plural of kibbutz is kibbutzim.

@Naomi4LabNEC

I'm 70 uears old and I've never lived through a time when world leaders heard testimony like this and turned their backs. No. No, no - it has to stop. There are not enough tears to mourn those already slaughtered and yet it goes on. For shame.

Save Our Citizenships 🧡
@LetsStopC9

There’s an acronym unique to the Gaza Strip: #WCNSF
Wounded Children No Surviving Family…

Nearly 10,000 innocent civilians killed, when is the massacre going to stop the slaughter the indiscriminate bombardment

Doctor telling of the horror everywhere never seen anything like it no water food facilities hospitals

Ceasefire

“It shocks me that some people think that making people into refugees and forcing them to leave their homes is acceptable. In any case the road south is now impassable”

They were told over 2 weeks ago to leave but Hamas wouldn’t let them, hoping that International pressure would make Israel give up - until the next time.

I pray for all innocent victims of war 🙏

My compassion and empathy is not confined to one race/religion, nor governed by political bias…

And then the inhumane treatment carries on, because any hostage must be living in total fear. Their minds will be destroyed forever and the scars of mental torture will be as deep as those of any physical beatings. I pray for them, along with all others whose lives are destroyed.

Dear God Grany, will you never stop?
Taking hostages is an extremely aggressive act, they cannot be treated humanely because the first act of taking them is not humane.

Middle East Monitor

According to Tuval Escapa, the security coordinator at Kibbutz Be’eri who set up a hotline between residents and the army,
Israeli commanders made “difficult decisions” including “shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages
This was confirmed by Israeli civilian, Yasmin Porat, who survived a hostage standoff in Be’eri. She stated that, during intense clashes, Israeli Special Forces “undoubtedly” killed all remaining hostages, along with two surrendering Hamas militants using tank shells and frenzied gunfire.
Porat recalled how Hamas militants had treated hostages “very humanely”, aiming only to take them back to Gaza, before Israeli forces stormed the building. She witnessed her partner still alive on the ground before he was gunned down, along with other hostages in the chaotic shooting. Other videos from inside kibbutzes are said to show corpses covered in rubble, likely from tank shells fired directly into homes by the Israeli army.
Gaza: Israel destroyed, damaged scores of mosques, churches, schools

No one should be shocked by what Hamas do, they do not follow the rules of human society but Israel should even in it's own defence and it's not. That is what is shocking.

It shocks me that some people think that making people into refugees and forcing them to leave their homes is acceptable.

It is shocking, yes, that Hamas thought it was acceptable for both the innocent Palestinian people and Israeli hostages could be used as pawns in their fight against the Jewish people in Israel.

Katie59

Vintagewhine

Sadly I don't believe the propaganda put out by either side. I would like to know how the IDF define a military target as it would seem that the whole of Gaza is one. I would also like to know what is the end point of this incursion and what will happen to the Gazans who are still alive, how they will be housed, fed and have access to at least basic services? How will they be governed? It's easy for Israel to flex it's military muscle but surely we also need to see that it has a heart as well and wants to live peacefully with it's neighbours

Propaganda, not hard for Hamas to use the media for its own
purposes, they are on the defensive now and suffering a lot of losses. There doesn’t seem to be much propaganda from Israel, they are the attackers, who knows which incidents are
deliberate or not, all the news stories provided by Hamas.

Israel is determined to occupy Gaza city come what may, they gave civilians 2 weeks to leave and given time they will achieve their aims. What happens then is just guess work.

It shocks me that some people think that making people into refugees and forcing them to leave their homes is acceptable. In any case the road south is now impassable
www.npr.org/2023/11/04/1210645183/israeli-military-announces-brief-window-people-in-northern-gaza-to-flee-south

Vintagewhine

Sadly I don't believe the propaganda put out by either side. I would like to know how the IDF define a military target as it would seem that the whole of Gaza is one. I would also like to know what is the end point of this incursion and what will happen to the Gazans who are still alive, how they will be housed, fed and have access to at least basic services? How will they be governed? It's easy for Israel to flex it's military muscle but surely we also need to see that it has a heart as well and wants to live peacefully with it's neighbours

Propaganda, not hard for Hamas to use the media for its own
purposes, they are on the defensive now and suffering a lot of losses. There doesn’t seem to be much propaganda from Israel, they are the attackers, who knows which incidents are
deliberate or not, all the news stories provided by Hamas.

Israel is determined to occupy Gaza city come what may, they gave civilians 2 weeks to leave and given time they will achieve their aims. What happens then is just guess work.

The rescue of the hostages is the reason, or perhaps one of the reasons for the incursion into Gaza, though I think the hopes of finding them alive is very slim. I expect Hamas has murdered them, but, maybe not, there is always hope until proved otherwise. Perhaps if rockets hadn't been fired into Israel for the last 17 years with ever increasing accuracy and strength, perhaps if hostages hadn't been taken, and most of all perhaps if Israel had taken heed of the warnings of a major incursion and not been completely lackadaisical with security, which actually beggars belief, we almost certainly would not be where we are.

Sadly I don't believe the propaganda put out by either side. I would like to know how the IDF define a military target as it would seem that the whole of Gaza is one. I would also like to know what is the end point of this incursion and what will happen to the Gazans who are still alive, how they will be housed, fed and have access to at least basic services? How will they be governed? It's easy for Israel to flex it's military muscle but surely we also need to see that it has a heart as well and wants to live peacefully with it's neighbours

I agree.