Starmer’s Dilemma Over Palestinian Situation

Grantanow

I think the Far Left are weaponizing Gaza to attack Starmer because he has brought the Labour Party to the point of electability which it never achieved under Corbyn.

This.

More twaddle.
Hamas not only put Jewish lives at risk, it took them, and in the most horrible ways anyone could ever think of.
BN may not be popular it’s true, but to say ‘nothing but nothing puts Israeli and Jewish lives at risk ‘ than him is plainly ridiculous.

Grany

GrannyGravy13

Callistemon21

More copy and paste.

I am beginning to think the poster is a bot

I was asked about Netanyahu,s corruption. Well in this bit taken from Andrew Feinstein’s piece it clearly sets it out just how corrupt Netanyahu and his ministers are, with details, much better than I could write.

So what do you think of Netanyahu

thank you Grany. Exactly what my Jewish friends tell me. Nothing, but nothing, puts Israeli and Jewish lives more at risk than Netanyahu.

Well I'm not "weaponising Gaza" I've been concerned with Israeli policies and their effect for a long time. This war was not the beginning for me. I find the concept that anyone is "weaponising" the situation completely unacceptable. It's fine to disagree with someone but casting aspersions on their reasons is not.
I'm disappointed that any Labour politician would not support a people who are living under an apartheid government.

The far left tend to hate the centrists more than they hate the Tories, to be fair that's also true the other way round.

Grantanow sorry to be simple but why would the far left oppose Starmer as the next prime minister? Surely he is a better choice for the far left than Sunak?
For sure Gaza is being weaponised but by many different factions?

Corbyn and moral principles ?

I think the Far Left are weaponizing Gaza to attack Starmer because he has brought the Labour Party to the point of electability which it never achieved under Corbyn.

Iam64

It wouldn’t matter to Grany or Gloriannie if Keir Starmer decided a ceasefire had become necessary. Nothing he does or says makes either of them support him as the leader of the party most Labour Party members hope to see as the next prime minister.

Oh I don't know. I might start to think that the man has actually got some moral principles, even though it took a long time to find them.

It wouldn’t matter to Grany or Gloriannie if Keir Starmer decided a ceasefire had become necessary. Nothing he does or says makes either of them support him as the leader of the party most Labour Party members hope to see as the next prime minister.

I wasn’t excluding what Freya said, I don’t agree with her either, although I do think that Hamas started this, and cannot have done so without knowing that it would provoke a massive backlash against their own people.
However, whatever Freya said it doesn’t excuse your silly comment, does it, it’s not a game of Top Trumps we are talking about here?

Casdon

I was making the point that all victims are victims Glorianny, it doesn’t matter what side they are on, or if they aren’t on any side.

So why not make it to Freya?

I was making the point that all victims are victims Glorianny, it doesn’t matter what side they are on, or if they aren’t on any side.

Casdon

That’s a silly thing to say Glorianny. Of course, all the civilians caught up in this war are the victims - there are no ‘real’ victims.

"real" as distinct from the "only" Freya has identified?
I don't think saying "only victims" shows any idea that all civilians are victims. But it is interesting that it is my "real" you have chosen to focus on.

That’s a silly thing to say Glorianny. Of course, all the civilians caught up in this war are the victims - there are no ‘real’ victims.

Freya
The only victims are the murderous incursion into Israel,
Not the 10,000 Palestinians who have died?
Not the estimated 50,000 who have been driven out of northern Gaza? Many of those were refugees living in camps who had been driven from their original homes by Israel and are once again having to move.
Who are the real victims?

Grany

GrannyGravy13

Callistemon21

More copy and paste.

I am beginning to think the poster is a bot

I was asked about Netanyahu,s corruption. Well in this bit taken from Andrew Feinstein’s piece it clearly sets it out just how corrupt Netanyahu and his ministers are, with details, much better than I could write.

So what do you think of Netanyahu

It's still just one persons opinion Grany. That doesn't make it a truth.

Keir Starmer has made the right decision. Many in his party have made the wrong one.

Anniel

This piece comes from the Conservative Party newsletter and is very even handed about Sir Keir’s awkward position. To be fair he has stared down the position of his Muslim MPs and Councillors so is taking a real decision.

Please acknowledge that this article sounds fairly sympathetic towards him.

conservativehome.com/2023/10/28/starmers-middle-east-dilemma-there-is-far-more-at-stake-here-than-the-future-of-a-single-political-leader/

So what do Grans think?

He cannot be on the side of a terrorist organisation. Hamas started this, with the outcome known to them, they can then plead victim. The only victims are the murderous incursion into Israel, unknow by stupid students on marches, and the victims of their incursuon on both sides. The finding of hand grenades and war plans next to childrens rooms, the amoury next to a beach., shows Starmer, for only once in his career, made a right move.

What do you think would happen if Starmer changed tack and said there should be a ceasefire Grany?
The answer is nothing as neither Starmer or Sunak have any leverage with Israel or hamas.
So anyone resigning is doing it as a point of their own principle, or rather taking the Muslim side over the Jewish side is what it boils down to.

GrannyGravy13

Callistemon21

More copy and paste.

I am beginning to think the poster is a bot

I was asked about Netanyahu,s corruption. Well in this bit taken from Andrew Feinstein’s piece it clearly sets it out just how corrupt Netanyahu and his ministers are, with details, much better than I could write.

So what do you think of Netanyahu

Callistemon21

More copy and paste.

I am beginning to think the poster is a bot

More copy and paste.

Candelle

To Grany, regarding:

Sun 05-Nov-23 20:40:28
Candelle you have your opinion I have mine. Don't be taken in by Israel propaganda. Netanyahu is corrupt so are his goverment ministers.
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Grany, I gave a pretty comprehensive post including the history of the region including the fact that the Israelis have every right to be there. It is history. You have ignored this.

I explained much of the background to this war. You have ignored this.

I explained how Palestinians work and pray in Israel but not vice versa. You have ignored this.

I explained how Gaza is not occupied by Israel. You have ignored this.

I suppose you have not made an effort to seek out the book or film, 'The Road to Babi Yar', as you make no comment of it. Please try to do so as it may explain matters to you of which you seem unaware.

I explained where the money that Hamas has collected from well-meaning Governments to improve the lot of the Palestinian people has gone. You have ignored this.

I explained that the above money has been spent on corruption and tunnels to cause murder but not used for the good of the Palestinian people. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas have been using the Palestinian populous as human shields, firing rockets at Israel from the centre of Gaza city. You have ignored this.

I explained how Hamas fired at their own people heading south from Gaza city. Why would they fire on their own? If the people all fled Gaza city, how could they (Hamas) have the publicity they crave? Their human pawns would be gone, no human shields. You have ignored this.

I explained how there is a Hamas command centre under the hospital. You have ignored this.

I explained that the Israelis asked/told the people to leave Gaza as they would be bombing to clear the city of all the rocket launchers and military paraphernalia. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that during WW11, we, the British people were happy to bomb cities in Germany, as the Germans bombed us. No ceasefire was requested by only one entity. You ignored this.

I explained that corrupt Hamas has not managed to provide any infrastructure for their people. The light and power come from Israel. If the Israelis had not provided it, Gaza would have been perpetually dark. You have ignored this.

I mentioned that no one in this country marched against the Governments of Syria or Yemen where millions died. Why now, for Palestine? The difference is...? You have ignored this.

In your comments, you rarely mention the deaths, pure murder and painful torture of Israelis on October 7th, let alone the hostages.

Just writing 'you have your opinion and I have mine' is untenable. You make many comments on this thread yet can't substantiate a cohesive reply to me on the above points. You just ignore them. I do not know why but perhaps it is to do with your not wanting to believe facts.

You mention Israeli propaganda. This comment actually made me smile. Hamas bumped up their propaganda machine some years ago and they have certainly done a good job if people such as yourself are unable to see how they have denied the Palestinian people a decent day-to-day life. Israeli, on the other hand, gave up its PR. They just concentrate on providing a life for their population - including the Palestinians within Israel (who work and vote there).

You do not seem to understand that Iran is pulling strings around the world. They want a bigger war. You are helping perpetuate this.

You mention Netanyahu: I believe that Netanyahu took his eye off the ball with regard to his first duty, as with any Prime Minister, that of keeping his country safe but his politics are not the point here. The murders of October 7th were a long time in the planning. I cannot comment on him being corrupt as I have no real understanding or knowledge of this. Do you?

Incidentally, I do not understand the hate directed to Israel by people such as yourself (and others here), a country who was invaded and is fighting back, fighting for its existence. Surely, it can only be anti-Semitism.

Tell me, Did a Jewish person blow up the twin towers in New York? Did a Jew blow himself and thereby kill scores of people - repeated hundreds of times around the world? Did a Jew try to blow up aircraft? I link these questions as I just do not understand the dreadful rhetoric towards the Jewish people.

Finally, do you understand (please read up on this as you probably will not believe me) that Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups we do not hear about, bring their people up to hate. Mothers bring their children up to hate. They want all Jewish people to die. Nice?

JewishVoiceForLabour
@JVoiceLabour
·
5h
Not Hamas nor antisemitism is greatest threat to the Jewish people. It is Israel’s war itself When Israel’s leaders commit acts of unconscionable violence in the name of Jewish people, they turn our religion and culture into something merciless and mean

Howard Beckett

@BeckettUnite
·
11h
The south of Gaza destroyed last night by Israeli air strikes. These are the areas people have been told to evacuate to. There are no safe zones in Gaza, only killing fields. The Hague has no legitimacy if it fails to step in.

All this didn’t start on 7th October The Jewish people were given land that Palestine’s had lived on for hundreds of years about 10% of Jews living there in peace too. In early 1900s Jews were promised land. The first Nakba was in 1948 when hundreds of thousands were driven from their land and killed. It was fine thing to give land to the Jewish people but the promise to protect Palestinian rights never came to be, never materialised never happened.

Hamas were not there 30 years ago, you figure out how Hamas came to be.

Also there is proof from Israel that the Israeli pilots killed their own citizens on 7th with heavy aircraft fire, as they didn’t recognise who was who. And the 40 babies beheaded story believed to be in doubt also, as propaganda for the genocide now taking place.

This is about the corruption of Netanyahu and his ministers.
By
Andrew Feinstein

You can read the rest here.
www.redpepper.org.uk/global-politics/palestine-middle-east/einsteins-nightmare-the-fascist-politicians-wielding-power-in-israel/
Netanyahu’s corruption is evident not only in the well-documented cases of receiving excessive gifts and benefits and ‘buying’ favourable media coverage, but also in massive arms deals involving bribes on a far larger scale.

The Prime Minister’s anti-democratic assault on Israel’s judicial system, thus, serves two purposes: to free up his government to behave as they please in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs) and to ensure that he never faces prosecution for his political and personal malfeasance.

Netanyahu’s sixth and current government is a coalition comprising the most extreme political actors from the right in Israel’s controversial history. Proudly fascist, the coalition comprises openly racist Islamophobes who were historically marginal in Israeli politics, but who are now driving policy in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs).

Fascists in power

Netanyahu’s government includes Bezalel Smotrich as both Finance Minister and, strangely, Minister in the Defence Ministry. In the latter role, he has authority over ‘civilian issues in the West Bank’ including over the allocation of land and the planning and construction of illegal settlements.

Smotrich himself lives on an illegal settlement, and believes that the OPTs are part of Israel – a position which, in his appalling world-view, Palestinians must accept and therefore must ‘choose’ between a life of subjugation under Israeli rule, voluntary emigration or death. A notorious racist who proudly describes himself as a ‘fascist homophobe’, Smotrich is an ultra-nationalist who denies the existence of Palestinian as a nation or people.

National Security Minister, Ben-Gvir is emblematic of the extreme nature of the government. In 2007, he was convicted in Israel for inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organisation – in any functioning democracy in which the rule of law held sway, Ben-Gvir would be in jail rather than serving as one of his country’s most powerful Ministers.

Redoubling resistance

The Israeli government of Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir is the most right wing, racist and genocidalist in the country’s history. It has abandoned any pretence of meaningful, accountable democracy, even for its privileged Jewish citizens.

It has created a political conjuncture in which Israel has a serious Jewish supremacy problem, much like apartheid South Africa’s white supremacist mind-set.

In its reaction to Hamas’ violent actions inside Israel, this government is very comfortable committing genocide. The unqualified and uncritical support this fascist, criminal government has received from British political leaders, both Tory and Labour, will ensure that this genocide continues until Israel has achieved its deadly, illegal objectives.

As a consequence, it is essential that we redouble our calls for a ceasefire now; demand an immediate arms embargo; organise a comprehensive, global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign against Israel; and insist that the International Criminal Court bring charges against all those complicit in the war crimes committed in Gaza and the OPTs.

You tell me to read a book about the Jewish people It is well documented what the Jews people have been through the holocaust

Have you read how for more than 75 years Palestinians have no rights their land taken away 70% still remain refugees and can’t go back to their land that their families were driven from.

I can’t answer any more questions
This is what I know.

Candelle
I explained how Palestinians work and pray in Israel but not vice versa. You have ignored this
Can you explain the Amnesty report which said of the extent of Israel’s apartheid regime. Whether they live in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, or Israel itself, Palestinians are treated as an inferior racial group and systematically deprived of their rights We found that Israel’s cruel policies of segregation, dispossession and exclusion across all territories under its control clearly amount to apartheid. The international community has an obligation to act

You said
Incidentally, I do not understand the hate directed to Israel by people such as yourself (and others here), a country who was invaded and is fighting back, fighting for its existence. Surely, it can only be anti-Semitism.
Are the many Jews protesting about Israel's actions anti-semitic? www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/7/jewish-new-yorkers-occupy-statue-of-liberty-to-demand-gaza-ceasefire#:~:text=Activists%20from%20Jewish%20Voice%20for,base%20of%20New%20York%20landmark.&text=Hundreds%20of%20US%20Jewish%20activists,in%20Gaza%20and%20a%20ceasefire.
Or the very orthodox Jews who do not believe a Jewish state should exist? www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ultra-orthodox-anti-zionis

You said
Tell me, Did a Jewish person blow up the twin towers in New York? Did a Jew blow himself and thereby kill scores of people - repeated hundreds of times around the world? Did a Jew try to blow up aircraft? I link these questions as I just do not understand the dreadful rhetoric towards the Jewish people.
No but neither did anyone from Gaza.
No one has posted anything about Jewish people. Criticism of the state of Israel is not criticism of Jews- see the links above.

You said
I explained that the Israelis asked/told the people to leave Gaza as they would be bombing to clear the city of all the rocket launchers and military paraphernalia. You have ignored this
Do you understand what ethnic cleansing is? Here's a definition
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[3][4][5] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even though ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law
Forcing Palestinians to leave is ethnic cleansing.

Truth is something which is sadly lacking in your post.