Covid Inquiry

And that’s key isn’t it? Quality of life. If quality of life is good, it doesn’t matter how old a person is, but when all quality of life is gone, people often want to die.
Thank you Iam64 for realising that I wasn’t referring to all older people, I was speaking about my mother, and using her as an example of what can happen.

At times of crisis there are really difficult decisions to be made, I dont mean in the Johnson way which wasnt decision making just chaos. But say Starmer or anyone else who can function is PM in another pandemic there will be decisions that have to be made which balance loss of life through the virus to the damage done by lockdowns. We can pretend that those decisions wont have to be made if we want but not sure how helpful it is.

Another one in agreement with GSM. Like Marydoll, I was prescribed meds for rheumatoid arthritis that cost £1000 a month. I was 62 still working but long term sick for the first time despite living with RA since my mid 20’s. The meds were fantastic, gave me my life back for a year, when i developed a dreadful reaction one in ten thousand so ‘rare but well documented’ my consultant said.
I’m 74 now, still walking and active because the nhs takes care of me.
I hope to continue to live well. I will continue to be positive and take responsibility for my health. My attitude is not that ‘I will fight for every day that is left to me’ rather that I am grateful to the nhs for its care and support.
To suggest GSM would not want a ‘youngster with a disability ‘ to receive the best care is shocking.
Those of us who have shared the final days of life with loved ones understand about the importance of ‘a good death’. We need a discussion about assisted dying

Germanshepherdsmum, that is exactly how I feel.
I too have paid my taxes, but I have been a huge drain on the NHS since my twenties.. I've had more than my fair share.
One of my medications cost £1000 a month and it turned out to be unsuitable for me.

My mother died at 82 and begged me to let her die, because she was tired of living. She had no quality of life, not every elderly person wants to prolong their existence.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have never supported Johnson, though I am a Conservative voter and am likely to remain so.

Younger people should, imo, take priority over the old when it comes to life-saving procedures if there is a choice to be made. Of course people love their older relatives and want them to live forever, but that’s not going to happen. Older people (such as me) have had their lives and unless we are fit enough to be still working, doing voluntary work or we are academics doing vital research and writing books our only use to society is the tax we pay (if any). I don’t support keeping older people alive at all costs if they are not of use to society as a whole. I am one such person, whose only use is to my family and to society via my taxes. I have during my life been a drain on the NHS because due to a particular condition all my medication has been prescribed foc for over 50 years. That’s not right and I have no desire to have my life prolonged unnecessarily.

Speak for yourself. Others certainly do not have your opinion.
I will fight for every day that is left to me.
Would you say the same about a youngster with disability, if so, you are as bad as those in Gov who said the despicable thing about the elderly.

Iam64

I don’t believe Johnson was ‘doing his best’. I’m not convinced he ever does aim for best, unless it’s on HIGNFY where he can do his best to be entertaining.

To quote Woody Allen ‘he was functioning within the parameters of his mediocrity’ so you could argue that he was doing his best. Sadly he was the wrong person in the wrong place at the worst possible time.

Probably not Iam64. It may have been my own misheld belief that she was one of the good ones, until I realised she was part of the party group.

Grandmabatty I can assure you that NHS staff certainly had parties, I have two living next door to me, one is in a senior management position. Their house was party central throughout lockdowns.

Grandmabatty, I don’t believe anyone sees HMacN as ‘squeeky clean’. She’s a lot cleaner than Cummings, Johnson’s Hancock, etc etc

I don’t believe Johnson was ‘doing his best’. I’m not convinced he ever does aim for best, unless it’s on HIGNFY where he can do his best to be entertaining.

Helen McNamara may have been clear and serious, however she still admitted to having hosted one of the infamous Westminster 'parties' while us ordinary mortals were in lockdown. Teachers and NHS staff didn't have parties, not did supermarket workers. So I don't think she's squeaky clean either

HousePlantQueen, he was 'doing his best'. Pity his 'best' was utterly inadequate. Hope we don't hear that excuse ever again.
Someone up-thread asked, what IS he good at? He excels in 'failing upward'.

I have never supported Johnson, though I am a Conservative voter and am likely to remain so.

Younger people should, imo, take priority over the old when it comes to life-saving procedures if there is a choice to be made. Of course people love their older relatives and want them to live forever, but that’s not going to happen. Older people (such as me) have had their lives and unless we are fit enough to be still working, doing voluntary work or we are academics doing vital research and writing books our only use to society is the tax we pay (if any). I don’t support keeping older people alive at all costs if they are not of use to society as a whole. I am one such person, whose only use is to my family and to society via my taxes. I have during my life been a drain on the NHS because due to a particular condition all my medication has been prescribed foc for over 50 years. That’s not right and I have no desire to have my life prolonged unnecessarily.

I’ve only heard snippets today. I’ll watch ch4 later. Helen MacNamara was calm, clear and impressive, especially in contrast with Cummings. It seems impossible to see Johnson’s Downing Street as anything other than having a macho/ misogynistic culture. It was dominated by white men with privileged backgrounds. Not one cabinet minister had children in state schools. None had received free school meals so Marcus Rashford’s campaign meant nothing.
Awful -m

Cummings might be foul mouthed but as least he did seem to care a little bit that people were dying, Johnson didn't seem to care at all.

Galaxy, I share your reflections on lockdowns. I’m CEV and kept to the rules and guidance. I would still have been very careful and kept distance from my children and grandchildren but I do feel it was hard on them. Families combining wfh with teaching their children - impossible. Children get so much from regular school attendance - they really missed out.

I accept any government would have made mistakes but the extent of chaos in Johnson’s government was every bit as bad as we believed. It was worse

I didn’t read maddyone’s post as including all older people, she talked about her own direct experience.
As MOn8ca says, these things need to be thought out in advance and fine tuned when the time comes. We had LPA for my lovely husband, organised before the unexpected, devastating diagnosis. It meant collectively or individually our daughters and I could make decisions on health care if the tine came when he couldn’t. It was of course traumatic but it helped to know we knew what he would want.

It’s relevant to the pandemic because I suspect it had many of us looking at LPA and do not resuscitate.

Unlike…..

I was always under the impression that Sweden fared less well than it’s immediate neighbours and not too much differently than the UK with it’s death rate. Had Sweden been as densely populated as Britain it’s possible that their death rate would have been higher, but I think they have very few cities, unless Britain.

I am not sure I would support a lockdown again if I could go back in time but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was a great supporter of lockdowns at the time.

Anyone who thinks that Sweden 'ignored the rules' and did better than other countries needs to look at the chart accompanying this tweet.

twitter.com/Hossylass/status/1719269158972477602

Also:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/swedish-pm-says-officials-misjudged-power-of-covid-resurgence

My father lived to be 92 and was active in the community until the three month illness that led to his death.

My uncle had dementia and was in a care home when he was diagnosed with bladder cancer.

In neither case were there constant interventions or efforts to keep them alive, even though my father was fully mentally alert until the last second of his life, but it was recognised , in my father's case that other medical problems made dealing with the main problem impossible.

In my uncles case we decided that because of his dementia he should be spared any interventionist treatment like operations where the usual pain and tubes that go with operations would distress him and he would not understand them, but he would be medicated as needed.

These things need to be thought out in advance in principle and fine tuned when the moment arrives. Nothing could make my fathers death less than dreadful, although I wish I had asked if more sedation was possible, but my uncle just drifted out of life when at a certain point the cancer reached a stage where his body closed down, he was put on end of life care and died within 24 hours.

I absolutely agree Maybee and I think I said sometimes old people are kept going for longer than they should be, sometimes being the operative word, so I wasn’t ever meaning every old person. So I hope you’re not cross or sad with me, I’m unsure of the meaning of that emoji. And you do have to remember I was speaking about my own mother who was nearly 95, and my parents in law who were 95 and 96. There is no comparison with a person in good health in their late 70s or early to middle 80s. I was hoping posters would understand that was what I meant.

maddyone

Iam64

Kadinsky -was the nurse being inhuman?
There’s some truth in her comment. Just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should.

Do Not Recussitate has its place in a caring medical/family discussion

I agree Iam64.
My mother died at 94. Until one year before her death she was happy, and independent with our help and support. A cleaner came to clean her flat and she had carers to help her shower each morning, but she came out in the car with us, I took her shopping or got her shopping for her, and so on. After her fall when she broke her shoulder, from which she never recovered properly, she had to live in a care home. She deteriorated slowly and surely, and for six months at least, said she wanted to die. Every infection, every medical problem was treated and she was looked after so well, but her bowels stopped working properly, so hospital admission, repeated UTIs meant constant antibiotics, many days of being unwell and I could go on. After the last paramedic call out because her SATs were all over the place, but then settled, I said to the staff, please don’t send her into hospital. I knew they would poke her and prod her and fill her up with drugs, but the truth was my mother was slowly dying. Her body was giving up, her organs failing to work properly and she was just so tired. She died a week later, peacefully in her care home. But she would rather have not lived that last year of her life, being kept alive by constant interventions. Poor mum.

So yes, sometimes very old people are kept going for longer than they should be, and it happened even more so with both my parent in laws, but I won’t go into all that too.

Sorry, I’ve hijacked the thread a bit. So back to the delightful Mr Cummings. Not!

But you can’t judge every old person by your own personal experience

Funnily enough, as I watched this last night, I wondered how the Johnson defenders on GN would react. My main surprise is that anyone is surprised, anyone who did any reading of political columns, or even just went on gut instinct, knew that Johnson was completely unfit for the job. In fact, I did quote, many months back, that the Problem with Johnson is that he fancied the idea of being PM, liked the idea of the talks and books after being PM, it was the bit inbetween that he found difficult I remember being slated by the Johnson supporters for this, and my other points about him ( traitorous behaviour etc). Cummings language doesn't concern me, Johnson gave him the job because he got Brexit done....remember that? Be careful what you wish for.