It appears the video is not available in the UK.
How ironic - some HMRC staff essentially committing fraud.
Instant coffee….advice needed.
Gransnet forums
News & politics
Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel
(449 Posts)"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"
A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,
"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.
Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.
Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.
In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"
Exactly Callistemon.
Israelis have taken to the streets several times to protest against Netanyahu's policies, for instance during Covid, protests this summer against the proposed judicial review and again now, demanding something be done to bring the hostages home.
As in most democratic countries, protests happen.
Yes, thank you for those quotes Elegran.
Now, perhaps some of you do not know John Oliver. He is a British 'comedian' who is famous in the USA. Uncomfortable to see him use 'humour' to talk about what is happening right now- but please watch and listen to the end.
Perhaps some of you will notice the statistics about thos in Israel who oppose Netanyahu and his hard right policies- and look carefully at the huge marches against him in Israel, and the flags displayed.
Thank you.
youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8?si=JYhahb2TDct11V6f
I would like to endorse what Joseann and choughdancer said.
And thank you Elegran for your informative and calm posts.
This is not to excuse or to approve of the violence by Hamas, but to disapprove of the way Israel has cast itself as the victim here, and the Palestinians as the aggressors, when they have been far from blameless in their turn and are now turning the incident into genocide and bombing settlements out of existence. It takes two to start a war.
Note number 7 below:- " … You do not settle him on the border or in a bad district, but rather in a good district in the middle of Eretz Yisrael where his trade may develop (Gerim 3:2-4, ed. Higger, pp. 73-74)."
If we are going into reasons for conflict, there is also a very old question - what happened to the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan before the Jews colonised it as their promised land? It wasn't empty virgin territory. Is this a rerun?
An excerpt from schechter.edu/stranger-within-your-gates/ :-
"*A. Ger Toshav – A Resident Alien*
"The Bible is not familiar with a ger tzedek or righteous convert. In the Bible, a ger is a stranger or resident alien of non-Israelite origin living in Israel. Such a ger is not an ezrah (citizen) and not mei’ahekha (from your brothers) and the rabbis call him a ger toshav or resident alien.
II) General Attitude to the Ger Toshav
The Bible repeatedly stresses that a ger toshav must be treated like a citizen, must be loved, and is loved by God:
1 Exodus 12 (48-49) says that if a ger wants to offer the Passover sacrifice he must first undergo circumcision. “He shall then be as a citizen of the country… there shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among you” (cf. Numbers 9:13-14).
2 Numbers 15 (14-16) says in connection with voluntary sacrifices that “there shall be one law for you and for the stranger; it shall be a law for all time throughout the ages. You and the stranger shall be alike before the Lord. The same ritual and the same rule shall apply to you and to the stranger who resides among you” (cf. Lev. 22:17 ff.).
3 Leviticus 19 (33-34) states that Israelites may not wrong the stranger (lo tonu oto) “you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt, I the Lord am your God”.
4 Deuteronomy 10 (17-18) adds that God “loves the stranger, providing him with food and clothing”, while Psalms 146:9 says that God “watches over the stranger”.
III) Specific Laws Which Protect the Ger Toshav
Yet the Bible does not satisfy itself with generalizations. It lists a whole series of specific rights to which Gerim are entitled:
1 “You shall not wrong or oppress a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:20) The rabbis interpreted this to mean that you may not oppress a ger toshav either verbally or monetarily (Maimonides, Hilkhot Mekhirah 14:15-16; Shulhan Arukh Hoshen Mishpat 228:2).
2 Gerim must rest on Shabbat, exactly like Jews (Exodus 20:10; 23:12).
3 Gerim may collect the gleanings (leket) from the field, alongside of poor Israelites (Lev. 23:22).
4 Gerim must be treated equally in a court of law (Deut. 1:16 and cf. Lev. 24:22; Numbers 35:15).
5 Gerim may eat from the tithe exactly like the widow and the orphan (Deut. 14:29).
6 Gerim who are day-laborers may not be abused. You must pay them their wages on the same day (Deut. 24:14-15).
7 This positive attitude continued in rabbinic literature. Massekhet Gerim which was written in the Geonic period (ca. 500-1000) summarizes some of the basic laws: “You may not cheat him (ona’ah), abuse him (oshek), or keep his wages overnight… You may not lend him money or borrow money with interest… You do not settle him on the border or in a bad district, but rather in a good district in the middle of Eretz Yisrael where his trade may develop (Gerim 3:2-4, ed. Higger, pp. 73-74).
8 Maimonides (Melakhim 10:12) rules: “And it seems to me that one treats gerei toshav with the consideration and deeds of lovingkindness due to a Jew, for we are commanded to sustain them…”.
9 Nahmanides (in his addenda to Maimonides’ Sefer Hamitzvot, Positive Commandments, No. 16, ed. Chavel, p. 254) goes one step further on the basis of Leviticus 25:35. He says that we must save the life of a ger toshav if he is drowning or if he is sick even on Shabbat, for pikuah nefesh overrides the Sabbath restrictions.
Thus we see that the Bible defends the rights of gerei toshav not just in general terms but through an entire list of specific mitzvot."
schechter.edu/stranger-within-your-gates/
No, Anniiiebach I am not comparing the Israeli government with the Third Reich. I am comparing the feelings of the Jews about their experiences under that regime with their apparent failure to remember those feelings when they were resettled after WW2 in a land where Palestinians were living. Jewish tradition and law has many rules and guidelines on how they should treat "the stranger within your gates", but they have been flouted many times - Palestinians evicted to places with poor land and their homes and farms given to incoming Jews, Israelis ripping out Palestinian olive groves, and so on.
I will post again when I find the guidelines of which I speak.
Anniebach
Comparing the Israeli government with the Third Reich !
On the others side the UK and US carpet bombing German and Japanese cities.
War is horrible the innocent get hurt in any war zone.
Joseann
^I find the absolute belief in ‘one side’ or the other increasingly irritating.^
I agree. DH happened to meet up with a couple of Jewish friends outside London at the weekend and discussed this very thing. Most Jewish people in the UK do not necessarily want sides to be taken. They want people to acknowledge the atrocities of October 7th, and to reach out with sympathy. They are angry about the horrors, but they are not urging anyone to take sides.
I too find the notion of 'siding' with either 'side' not only irritating but a recipe for continuing the status quo which will continue suffering for innocent Israelis and Palestinians. I belong to these two organisations: www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ (based in the US) and jfjfp.com/ (based in the UK).
The answer isn't extremism on either 'side'. The answer is people, both Israeli, Palestinian; and wider groups all over the world working for peace. On Gransnet I've seen posts mostly advocating for peace and a peaceful settlement. I've seen very few posts promoting HAMAS or extreme Zionism.
Can we not make a tiny but important difference by joining the voices for peace; for a two state solution; for ordinary Israelis and Palestinians being able to see a peaceful future? www.allmep.org/ is one site to look at.
Comparing the Israeli government with the Third Reich !
Katie59 said "we have seen hundreds of thousands of civilians fleeing the battle zone, after 3 weeks warning why were they there?."
They were there because it was their home, just as Jews were still in Germany, Poland, Lithuania, after it had been made very clear to them by the Nazi regime (and others) that they were not welcome and would be punished if they stayed. It is not easy to lift your roots and leave your home, with your babies and children and what you can carry. Many families had already done this already, evicted to the barren margins of the land so that incoming Jews could take over their houses and farms.
The Jews rightly had the sympathy of the world after WW2 revealed the depths of how they were treated, yet their official policy toward Palestinians does not show that they remembered this when they held the upper hand. Many in Israel are aware of this.
No surprise that Netanyahu is unpopular in Israel but now he leads a “national” government bent on destroying Hamas, in due course he will go.
Currently there does not seem to be anything other than hard line policies from Israel, that needs to change. Maybe if Hamas were to release hostages there might be changes, although they seem to want to fight to the last Palestinian.
I find the absolute belief in ‘one side’ or the other increasingly irritating.
I agree. DH happened to meet up with a couple of Jewish friends outside London at the weekend and discussed this very thing. Most Jewish people in the UK do not necessarily want sides to be taken. They want people to acknowledge the atrocities of October 7th, and to reach out with sympathy. They are angry about the horrors, but they are not urging anyone to take sides.
I find the absolute belief in ‘one side’ or the other increasingly irritating.
It’s no surprise that about 70% of Israeli’s are angry with Netanyahu. Google easily confirms this, then there are many posters with family/friends in Israel or those of us with Jewish friends who live in the UK, whose varied opinions we could use to bolster our own views.
I haven’t heard from friends, nor does the usually reliable search engine confirm fleur’s insistence that Israelis who oppose Netanyahu are being beaten black and blue or losing their jobs.
The first casualty of war.....
‘Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics’
You seem to be back tracking Fleurpepper
Of course very many Israelis are angry and unhappy that BN didn’t manage to prevent what happened on 7th Oct. If that had happened here, say, most if us would be angry at the government and the leader especially. He wasn’t popular with a lot of citizens in any case.That doesn’t mean that 70% disagree with going after hamas into Gaza tho.Far from it.
There is tons of misinformation on SM doing the rounds with messages purporting to be from ‘concerned’ Israeli citizens when in fact it’s the propaganda machine hamas.
This is not how statistics work.
So every Israeli was questioned ?
Official statistics- They have gone up too.
Netanyahu is a leader under extreme pressure.
A recent poll said 80% of Israelis think he should be held responsible for the 7 October terror attacks.
He is not supported by many in the security establishment and although calls for him to resign are small - for now in the middle of a war at least - he knows that moment is coming.
How can anyone know 70% , not possible
Oreo
That’s one couple only.
Which people have been imprisoned for simply voicing concern over innocent victims in Gaza? Israeli citizens are still in shock at the sheer hellishness and brutality of those 7th October murders/ hostage taking but even so it’s doubtful that there have been trials and imprisonment of anyone who merely says they feel sorry for Gazan citizens.
Sorry but it doesn’t stack up.There would have to have been far more to it than that.
What can I say. You won't believe me, and just say 'it's one couple' - 70% of Israelis and probably more now, do NOT support Netanyahu and are not allowed to express this due to severe threats, beating ups and imprisonment.
Urmstongran
I think Hamas would love a ceasefire! Regroup. Sort themselves out. They’re already begging Hezbollah to help them - they have 10x the armaments and weapons of Hamas. But if Hezbollah step in, America WILL step up.
Hamas has been overwhelmed, they thought Israel would shy away from invading because of high losses and international pressure. Today they are using rows of babies in their propaganda, we have seen hundreds of thousands of civilians fleeing the battle zone, after 3 weeks warning why were they there?.
Israel will pause the war when they have full control of Northern Gaza. Hezbollah will not escalate beyond the minor border raids because the US will intervene
I read today that some of Gaza’s citizens are publicly railing against Hamas. Hopefully the tide is turning. Ordinary peaceful Palestinians are having the scales fall from their eyes. They know they’re being used as cover/shields for Hamas. A terrorist organisation that has prioritised tunnels under hospitals, schools and nurseries instead of using all that subverted money for the good of the ordinary Gazan people. They rule the Palestinians with an iron fist!
I think Hamas would love a ceasefire! Regroup. Sort themselves out. They’re already begging Hezbollah to help them - they have 10x the armaments and weapons of Hamas. But if Hezbollah step in, America WILL step up.
Join the conversation
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join the discussion, watch threads and lots more.
Register now »Already registered? Log in with:
Gransnet »