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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

grannybuy Wed 08-Nov-23 15:54:08

The protesters may have no intention of causing trouble, but as often happens in protests, the group is joined by people who have no interest whatsoever in the reason behind the protest, but enjoy inciting violence. In the news, we often see pictures of protests in cities all over the world, where youths are running amok, looting etc.
In the past, battles were fought ‘ in the field ‘, literally, where one side won, and the other side lost. Of course there was death, sadly, but not the loss of innocent citizens like in the present situation. Families are lost, homes and cities ruined. It saddens me greatly to think of the future for the survivors.

DrWatson Wed 08-Nov-23 15:36:27

For TerriBull - great post (s) - and MOnica too. Those demonstrating are well meaning, but clueless. Nobody in Tehran, Hamas or Jerusalem cares a jot about demos here, in USA, or anywhere else. For them to organise a mass demo on Armistice Day is frankly disgusting.

They are also largely hypocrites. Have those same folk been demo-ing for, what, 12 yrs or more about the Assad & Putin genocide against innocent Syrians - substantially Muslims with some Christian deaths too? Thought not.

And were they pounding the streets through the ISIL campaign in Iraq and Syria, which killed tens of thousands of, er, Muslims, also targeted the harmless Yazidis, a faith which far predates Islam? No, thought not.

Are they daily protesting about the Iran-inspired war in Yemen, which has had Muslims killing many thousands of innocent, er, Muslims?! No - thought not.

With Israel backed by USA, and Russia these days, plus most of the western world, any such protests are just pointless, nobody in the key places cares about such marches, they just waste our police time and resources.

Several people have made the broader point about immigrants here, Islamic or perhaps other non-Christian faiths, wanting to radically change our way of life. On the rare occasions this topic gets mentioned in the groups I frequent, the almost 100% opinion is that if they came HERE for a better life, fine, but don't try to rock the boat. If a subset of Wolverhampton, Luton or Bradford (etc) wants to turn areas into Karachi or Islamabad, then shove off back THERE. Same with Indian enclaves, or Palestinians in East London (?), don't torture yourselves here if you're unhappy?!

Callistemon21 Wed 08-Nov-23 15:25:43

It would be an appropriate time for a ceasefire, wouldn't it Mawmac but now, this minute would be better, together with the release of the hostages.

Mawmac Wed 08-Nov-23 15:22:57

NoraIsOnlineNow

I don’t usually post but feel like I have to give my two cents. As a Jewish woman, I don’t feel like the majority of the hate is directed to Jews, I feel like it’s directed to the Israeli government and they are not the same thing.
We obviously condemn the violent, barbaric acts of Hamas, but saying Israel hasn’t done anything wrong is missguided at best and wrong at worst. Israel arrived in the Middle East, stole the land, put Palestinians in, ironically, concentration camps or “open air prisons” (they were not allowed to leave, lived in extreme poverty and hunger and were shot if they got close to the border), destabilized their government and, as a cherry on top, funded Hamas!.
When Hamas attacked, Israel attacked back, but the thing people are condemning is the magnitude of the retaliation. Israel, a military power backed by the US, has been constantly bombing Gaza, including places where civilians gather (“but they’re using them as human shields” is not an excuse to bomb hospitals filled with civilians!). When asked to let civilians out of Gaza, they gave 24 hours to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people and bombed the escape routes. They have also been constantly lying, reporters have to be reviewed by the Israeli government or they aren’t allowed to report and have been feeding them misleading and false information. Israel has been treating all Palestinians (not only Hamas!) like animals for years, even saying it on TV and social media, they’re even considering nuking the place!
That’s all i have to say, sorry for the long post
Sources: I’m a Historian, I’ve been studying the Palestine-Israel situation for years, and my GD is a reporter that was there when the whole thing started

Thank you for this well balanced comment. I was becoming very depressed at the lack of empathy here for the Palestinians suffering in Gaza and the West Bank.
My DD did a Masters in Political Communication 15 years ago, looking at the imbalance in reporting on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Depressingly, nothing has changed.
Where has the outrage been about deaths in the conflict between 2008 and 2020. UN data shows that 5,600 Palestinians and 250 Israelis died, so approximately 95% Palestinian.
Too many deaths on both sides.
I will continue to join demonstrations calling for a ceasefire with no hatred in my heart for any people, but despair about the world which can justify this atrocity and criticise a call for armistice on Armistice Day.

maddyone Wed 08-Nov-23 15:18:00

Yes Callistemon, a silent vigil would be appropriate and profoundly moving under the circumstances.

maddyone Wed 08-Nov-23 15:16:52

Nan0

bmacca, the 11th day of the 11th moth, the malcontent march organisers have chosen this date deliberately.They are sponsored by Al Aqsa, Muslim associations of Britain, CNN and Socialist Worker and Stop the War coalitions, and taxpayers money unions eg ASLEF and Friends of Palestine using a qr code to claim a subsidy for travel to the March in London.. they are funneled money from Iran , Russia and Hezbollah, and Hamas , I've seen the posters in Oxford on Sunday.with the code.

I had no idea, I’d this really true? If so, it is very disturbing.

Katie59 Wed 08-Nov-23 15:12:54

Buttonjugs

I thought the problem was that Israel were invading Palestine, Israel were the bad guys, full stop. Even so I had no problem with Jewish people. As with most conflict it is a government/organisation issue, not ordinary citizens. Then I found out that Palestine were ruled by Hamas who are a terrorist organisation and they do not recognise Israel as a state. Israel offered a two state solution but it was turned down because Hamas want to take over the entire country. There is no easy solution to this. If Israel withdraw from Gaza it is very likely Hamas would try to claim Israel territory bit by bit. As I understand it, the occupation is a defence measure. I could be wrong but it makes sense to me.

There will be no lasting peace while Hamas is allowed to use Gaza as an armed camp shielded by civilians to attack Israel, and drive the Jews out of Israel

That is their intention

Buttonjugs Wed 08-Nov-23 14:55:28

I thought the problem was that Israel were invading Palestine, Israel were the bad guys, full stop. Even so I had no problem with Jewish people. As with most conflict it is a government/organisation issue, not ordinary citizens. Then I found out that Palestine were ruled by Hamas who are a terrorist organisation and they do not recognise Israel as a state. Israel offered a two state solution but it was turned down because Hamas want to take over the entire country. There is no easy solution to this. If Israel withdraw from Gaza it is very likely Hamas would try to claim Israel territory bit by bit. As I understand it, the occupation is a defence measure. I could be wrong but it makes sense to me.

Callistemon21 Wed 08-Nov-23 14:50:47

Nan0

Blasted predictive text has made a nonsense of my post.CND , not CNN

And yet it is a day when all those who gave their lives should be remembered and honoured - of all faiths including Muslims.

It is sad that even this weekend, when we pray or peace, could be overshadowed by protests.
A silent vigil might be appropriate but I have a feeling the protests will not take that form and that hatred will be in evidence.

oodles Wed 08-Nov-23 14:44:29

I lived for a (short) time in an area of London that had a fairly high Jewish population. After some years not having gone back I was so horrified to hear of how schools etc needed to be guarded.
There was a reason for some of the career choices of Jewish people in the 19th century, not only Jewish people but also Catholics, and non Anglican protestants. Only Anglicans could go to university , this was eventually no longer the case but it meant that careers that needed a degree were not open to them, so non conformists tended to go into occupations that didn't need one, many industrialists were non conformists, and eventually Jewish people, formexample in the textile trade. Quaker families were involved in banking too.
There are some good Muslim/Jewish cooperation, for example the Bradford synagogue was saved with the help of the local Muslims. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/bradford-synagogue-saved-muslims-jews
Stories like that are not on but give hope that there can be harmony amongst those of different faiths.

Nan0 Wed 08-Nov-23 14:41:37

Blasted predictive text has made a nonsense of my post.CND , not CNN

Nan0 Wed 08-Nov-23 14:39:36

bmacca, the 11th day of the 11th moth, the malcontent march organisers have chosen this date deliberately.They are sponsored by Al Aqsa, Muslim associations of Britain, CNN and Socialist Worker and Stop the War coalitions, and taxpayers money unions eg ASLEF and Friends of Palestine using a qr code to claim a subsidy for travel to the March in London.. they are funneled money from Iran , Russia and Hezbollah, and Hamas , I've seen the posters in Oxford on Sunday.with the code.

Callistemon21 Wed 08-Nov-23 14:23:52

Dillonsgranma

How I hate religion! It has caused more wars and bad feeling in the world than anything else. I despair. It’s 2023 for heavens sake!

It's not religion, it's man's misuse of it that causes conflicts.

Joseann Wed 08-Nov-23 14:22:09

Stewpot100

We have BLM and LGBTQ+ I have been wondering recently why more is not being done in support of Antisemitism?

We can sign the October Declaration to show support. It has around 75,000 signatures alread.

TerriBull Wed 08-Nov-23 14:10:12

I do agree, as you say Lottie this is less about religion, that is somewhat of a misnomer in this context, much more about a land grab. Having said that, I think to assume that posters get their information from the DM is somewhat of an assumption.

missdeke Wed 08-Nov-23 13:41:04

Anywhere where politics and religion mix is a recipe for disaster. Add to that extremists on both sides and you have war. Most Israelis and Palestinians don't want this war and would be perfectly ok living alongside each other. Then along come the extremists inciting hatred and everyone is doomed.

Stewpot100 Wed 08-Nov-23 13:29:34

We have BLM and LGBTQ+ I have been wondering recently why more is not being done in support of Antisemitism?

Lottie53 Wed 08-Nov-23 13:14:59

Exactly. I think you will find if you bother to ask that the Palestine/Israel issue is not about religion but about occupation and land grabbing by Israel from the 1967 borders.
I would recommend reading ‘the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’ by Prof Ilan Pappe who is Israeli by birth and is a Prof in an English university. He has written many books on the subject. Better to get your information from reputable sources than the Daily Mail.

Marthjolly1 Wed 08-Nov-23 12:42:29

I am very fearful. It is a real fear. All the children caught up in this truly awful conflict, on both sides, are witness to so many unspeakable horrific atrocities. This begets a perfect breeding ground for tomorrow's terrorists. It is our grandchildren who may well be caught up as the targets of those terrorists. Where, oh where are we going.

Chino Wed 08-Nov-23 12:31:52

What Hamas did was barbaric but what the Israelis are now doing is also
They have now started threatening people in the West Bank forcing them to move

LizzieDrip Wed 08-Nov-23 12:28:51

How I hate religion! It has caused more wars and bad feeling in the world than anything else. I despair. It’s 2023 for heavens sake!

👏👏👏

mistymitts Wed 08-Nov-23 12:28:02

Religion has so much to answer for. In Religion..
Knowledge is Evil
Faith is Evidence
Fear is Love.
I am in despair of the human race, I am ashamed of this legacy.

Dillonsgranma Wed 08-Nov-23 12:16:25

How I hate religion! It has caused more wars and bad feeling in the world than anything else. I despair. It’s 2023 for heavens sake!

growstuff Wed 08-Nov-23 11:55:40

Grantanow

I don't like the anti-Jewish sentiment which has surfaced in the UK and I don't like anti-Moslem sentiment either. Not do I like protest posters being torn down and poppy sellers being attacked during protest activities.

I feel the same.

sazz1 Wed 08-Nov-23 11:50:49

I think there are major faults on both sides. Also the land should be divided exactly in half with proper borders, customs etc.
We should not be actively supporting either side. All pro whichever side marches and protests should be banned here. Anyone organising a march should be jailed and anyone taking part should be fined. It is none of our business and we shouldn't be involved.