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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

Grandmama Wed 08-Nov-23 11:47:48

One has only to read the Old Testament to see that the struggle for Palestine - the Promised Land for the Israelites - began thousands of years ago. There are some very bloody events in the OT carried out by both Israel and its enemies.

Until recently most Orthodox Jews wouldn't visit York because of the mass suicide in Clifford's Tower in the 12th century.

A little later was the death of Little Hugh of Lincoln (1246 – 27 August 1255) who was an English boy whose death in Lincoln was falsely attributed to Jews. He is commemorated in Lincoln Cathedral.

Barb22 Wed 08-Nov-23 11:46:24

maddyone

But Monica asked unpalatable questions that need to be asked. We need to look at how we have arrived at this situation. I never thought I’d live in a society that openly attacks Jewish people and I don’t like it.

I don’t like it either

Grantanow Wed 08-Nov-23 10:18:47

I don't like the anti-Jewish sentiment which has surfaced in the UK and I don't like anti-Moslem sentiment either. Not do I like protest posters being torn down and poppy sellers being attacked during protest activities.

growstuff Tue 07-Nov-23 21:40:54

Joseann

growstuff

Joseann

Don't mention football. I'm a longtime Spurs fan and used to waitress at the club's Chantecleer Rooms during my university days. Spurs historically is a club with Jewish heritage and the anti semitism from other clubs is appalling. Spurs supporters are called Yids by the other team, and often the opposing team makes a hissing sound meant to signify the showers in the concentration camps. What they also chant is horrible. I'm glad we are playing away to Wolves on Saturday 11th in view of what is going on.

To be fair, Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army.

Only in response to the provocation caused by opposing fans using the word. Some Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army in order to show resilience, but this stance has been questioned by the club.

I know. The FA and club have tried to stop them. Unfortunately, the response from some of the fans was ‘We’ll sing what we want!’

Iam64 Tue 07-Nov-23 21:06:40

Thanks Joseann - spurs fans attempting to reclaiming ‘yid’ positively is reminiscent of some black people reclaiming ‘n**** ‘. Or old seventies feminists reclaiming woman rather than lady. I have London Jewish friends who support Spurs

Sone people have made comparisons between this conflict and the entrenched conflict in Northern Ireland, there are some similarities but more differences imo. What I hope for, is the influence of ‘ordinary’ Jewish and Palestinian people on the extremes in their communities. Enough - we want peace. It’s impossible though for me not to wonder about the sustained bombing killing innocent Palestinians
I don’t mean to polarise this thread TerriBull

Urmstongran Tue 07-Nov-23 20:08:33

Hopefully ‘where there’s a will, there’s a way’.
We can but hope.
x

Joseann Tue 07-Nov-23 20:07:20

growstuff

Joseann

Don't mention football. I'm a longtime Spurs fan and used to waitress at the club's Chantecleer Rooms during my university days. Spurs historically is a club with Jewish heritage and the anti semitism from other clubs is appalling. Spurs supporters are called Yids by the other team, and often the opposing team makes a hissing sound meant to signify the showers in the concentration camps. What they also chant is horrible. I'm glad we are playing away to Wolves on Saturday 11th in view of what is going on.

To be fair, Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army.

Only in response to the provocation caused by opposing fans using the word. Some Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army in order to show resilience, but this stance has been questioned by the club.

ronib Tue 07-Nov-23 19:49:01

NoraisonlineNow unfortunately Hamas has defined itself as the enemy of Israel. Let’s make no mistake about the long term planning that has gone into building 310 miles of underground tunnels to effectively attack and destroy Israel. It wasn’t built overnight. And to position itself so strategically must have taken some time. I know of no other marauding army in history to have adopted this strategy but am happy to be told otherwise.
As for your assertion that Israel is not playing fair with the civilian population. Interesting point but we’re so removed from the action that we don’t know exactly how fair or not Israel has been. I thought Israel had dropped leaflets telling Palestinians to evacuate the area. This was not the act of an uncaring opponent- or was it?
The fact that you believe IDF is vastly superior and double the size of Hamas does beggar the question of what is the end game for Hamas who attacked with complete surprise.
I certainly wouldn’t discount the influence and input of other adjacent countries. You may of course.
We’re agreed though that this is a truly dark time and we long for a good resolution and reverence for life.

growstuff Tue 07-Nov-23 19:48:13

Joseann

Don't mention football. I'm a longtime Spurs fan and used to waitress at the club's Chantecleer Rooms during my university days. Spurs historically is a club with Jewish heritage and the anti semitism from other clubs is appalling. Spurs supporters are called Yids by the other team, and often the opposing team makes a hissing sound meant to signify the showers in the concentration camps. What they also chant is horrible. I'm glad we are playing away to Wolves on Saturday 11th in view of what is going on.

To be fair, Spurs fans call themselves the Yid Army.

jenpax Tue 07-Nov-23 19:26:24

NoraIsOnlineNow

I don’t usually post but feel like I have to give my two cents. As a Jewish woman, I don’t feel like the majority of the hate is directed to Jews, I feel like it’s directed to the Israeli government and they are not the same thing.
We obviously condemn the violent, barbaric acts of Hamas, but saying Israel hasn’t done anything wrong is missguided at best and wrong at worst. Israel arrived in the Middle East, stole the land, put Palestinians in, ironically, concentration camps or “open air prisons” (they were not allowed to leave, lived in extreme poverty and hunger and were shot if they got close to the border), destabilized their government and, as a cherry on top, funded Hamas!.
When Hamas attacked, Israel attacked back, but the thing people are condemning is the magnitude of the retaliation. Israel, a military power backed by the US, has been constantly bombing Gaza, including places where civilians gather (“but they’re using them as human shields” is not an excuse to bomb hospitals filled with civilians!). When asked to let civilians out of Gaza, they gave 24 hours to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people and bombed the escape routes. They have also been constantly lying, reporters have to be reviewed by the Israeli government or they aren’t allowed to report and have been feeding them misleading and false information. Israel has been treating all Palestinians (not only Hamas!) like animals for years, even saying it on TV and social media, they’re even considering nuking the place!
That’s all i have to say, sorry for the long post
Sources: I’m a Historian, I’ve been studying the Palestine-Israel situation for years, and my GD is a reporter that was there when the whole thing started

Thank you for this balanced view

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-Nov-23 19:25:21

Our football mad GS has been to Spurs home games with his pal and his pal’s father, at 14 yrs of age he was shocked at the antisemitism from opposing fans.

maddyone Tue 07-Nov-23 19:17:36

Joseann

Don't mention football. I'm a longtime Spurs fan and used to waitress at the club's Chantecleer Rooms during my university days. Spurs historically is a club with Jewish heritage and the anti semitism from other clubs is appalling. Spurs supporters are called Yids by the other team, and often the opposing team makes a hissing sound meant to signify the showers in the concentration camps. What they also chant is horrible. I'm glad we are playing away to Wolves on Saturday 11th in view of what is going on.

Joseann I’m shocked by your post, I had no idea. It just shows the level of antisemitism going on right under our noses every day. These are hate crimes and I wonder why the police don’t address them.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-Nov-23 18:24:30

I have no idea why my post has North Bank,
I know I typed West Bank 😱

Anniebach Tue 07-Nov-23 18:12:53

It’s so wrong we cannot have one day to join together in remembering our war dead.

NoraIsOnlineNow Tue 07-Nov-23 17:58:21

ronib There could have been on or a hundred thousand miles of tunnels below hospitals, churches, whatever, and even then it wouldn't be an excuse to bomb civilians like that. Israel has some of the most advanced military equipment in the world, if they cared about the civilians they would do better. Again, I don't think the "they're using civilians as meatshields" reasoning should give them the right to shoot through them.

Now, there are countries in the middle east that support Hamas, yes, but even then it's not a fair conflict. The IDF doubles Hamas' army in size, not even mentioning the technological gap.

That being said, I do not support Hamas in any shape or form. I care about Palestines, not Hamas, and I care about the jewish community, not Israel. I want freedom, not violence, and I'm sure you'd also want that for those around you, we are humans after all.

"More children have been killed in just over three weeks in Gaza than in all of the world’s conflicts combined in each of the past three years, according to the global charity Save the Children."
- apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-11-1-2023-children-killed-4a352398b32887e60a658e0270f0a021

Joseann Tue 07-Nov-23 17:30:28

Don't mention football. I'm a longtime Spurs fan and used to waitress at the club's Chantecleer Rooms during my university days. Spurs historically is a club with Jewish heritage and the anti semitism from other clubs is appalling. Spurs supporters are called Yids by the other team, and often the opposing team makes a hissing sound meant to signify the showers in the concentration camps. What they also chant is horrible. I'm glad we are playing away to Wolves on Saturday 11th in view of what is going on.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-Nov-23 17:26:40

TerriBull

Turning to the proposed marches on Saturday, it now looks if the day could potentially be a disaster. Splinter groups from Hamas looking for trouble with Tommy Robinson and his cohorts also threatening confrontation, not to mention marauding football hooligans joining in the fray. A perfect storm of disperate elements ruining what should be a solemn day.

Apparently Jeremy Corbyn has confirmed he will be joining the Free Palestine March.

We should be going out to dinner in London on Saturday evening with my sister, BiL and nieces, we are considering cancelling. (We have already decided not to go to the Lord Mayors Show/Parade in the morning )

TerriBull Tue 07-Nov-23 17:17:02

Turning to the proposed marches on Saturday, it now looks if the day could potentially be a disaster. Splinter groups from Hamas looking for trouble with Tommy Robinson and his cohorts also threatening confrontation, not to mention marauding football hooligans joining in the fray. A perfect storm of disperate elements ruining what should be a solemn day.

Katie59 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:47:28

Made peace

Katie59 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:47:07

Netanyahu doesn’t matter we made leave with the Germanys and Japanese Israel can do the same with Palestinians, it won’t be easy.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:37:22

Whitewavemark2

But my point is that the rhetoric is largely coming from the politicians or extremists on both sides.

Talk to an ordinary citizen and I think that the message is much more nuanced and forgiving.

Maybe so, but the negotiations will be between Hamas, Israeli Government and the leaders in the North Bank.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:21:31

But my point is that the rhetoric is largely coming from the politicians or extremists on both sides.

Talk to an ordinary citizen and I think that the message is much more nuanced and forgiving.

maddyone Tue 07-Nov-23 15:20:58

There will be some sort of peace eventually but I don’t have faith that it will last. Netanyahu will go too, but it will not bring about lasting peace. I’m afraid that when dealing with an organisation that wishes every Jew dead, lasting peace will be impossible. It sounds terribly pessimistic but look at the history.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:15:12

Whitewavemark2

I am optimistic though that in the future ( quite distant at the moment) that both lots of citizens are capable of living in peace and harmony with each other, they have done so in the past and I’m sure the will is there to do so again.

The extremists in both camps need getting rid of.

I hope you are correct.

I feel the current wounds on both side are too sore and recent to be easily resolved.

The rhetoric from both sides needs to change for there to be any tentative negotiations.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 07-Nov-23 15:12:33

I am optimistic though that in the future ( quite distant at the moment) that both lots of citizens are capable of living in peace and harmony with each other, they have done so in the past and I’m sure the will is there to do so again.

The extremists in both camps need getting rid of.