Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

Whitewavemark2

I have been very unhappy at the illegal settlers in Palestine as well as the police who protect them. Far too many Palestinians have been killed, displaced, made homeless etc.

This is an issue that need urgent addressing. However, Netanyahu, who draws much of his support from the illegal settlers will not be dealing with it.

Agreed, apparently there are some 600000 Israelis that have been settled in the West Bank that has made relations much worse and has to be reversed, if the Palestinians are to be satisfied.
Yes Israel is going to have to make sacrifices if it wants peace and the US has got to make sure it continues

Just to add to my post - the majority of Israelis are not supportive of the illegal settlers, however if they protest, they get beaten up by the police.

I have been very unhappy at the illegal settlers in Palestine as well as the police who protect them. Far too many Palestinians have been killed, displaced, made homeless etc.

This is an issue that need urgent addressing. However, Netanyahu, who draws much of his support from the illegal settlers will not be dealing with it.

I do take your points NorahIsOnlineNow and I didn't really start the thread to line up along partisan lines. I think many of us know that the Israeli government have behaved in a reprehensible manner. I did read about the crazy far right Israeli politician who suggested nuking Gaza, although how that would work in not annihilating Israel at the same time I can't imagine, it's not as if a nuclear fall out could be contained.

As far as Jewish communities being targeted whilst respecting your lived experience, many Jewish people do suggest that what is being dumped on them feels personal, after all shouldn't those who wish to protest against Israel do so outside their embassy or any other public offices they might have rather than the Jewish community. Many Jewish public figures have spoken about their disquiet I can't believe they would do so if they didn't feel so insecure. I guess also it's a factor on how discernibly Jewish people can be identified. Many, like the rest of us live secular lives in not particularly Jewish enclaves and would not be easily identified as Jewish anyway, and if that's the case maybe they don't feel the pressure say, an Orthodox Jewish person might.

NorahisonlineNow What information do you have on whether Hamas has 310 miles of underground tunnels plus has positioned headquarters underneath hospitals? Is this truth or fiction? Plus is Hamas using ambulances to transport its fighters? Etc ….and which countries are backing Hamas? All in the interest of historical accuracy you understand !

Thank you for your two cents worth NorahIsOnlineNow

Than you for that post NorahisOnlineNow.

That will be lovely Joseann, we were there in the summer months this time.

I don’t usually post but feel like I have to give my two cents. As a Jewish woman, I don’t feel like the majority of the hate is directed to Jews, I feel like it’s directed to the Israeli government and they are not the same thing.
We obviously condemn the violent, barbaric acts of Hamas, but saying Israel hasn’t done anything wrong is missguided at best and wrong at worst. Israel arrived in the Middle East, stole the land, put Palestinians in, ironically, concentration camps or “open air prisons” (they were not allowed to leave, lived in extreme poverty and hunger and were shot if they got close to the border), destabilized their government and, as a cherry on top, funded Hamas!.
When Hamas attacked, Israel attacked back, but the thing people are condemning is the magnitude of the retaliation. Israel, a military power backed by the US, has been constantly bombing Gaza, including places where civilians gather (“but they’re using them as human shields” is not an excuse to bomb hospitals filled with civilians!). When asked to let civilians out of Gaza, they gave 24 hours to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people and bombed the escape routes. They have also been constantly lying, reporters have to be reviewed by the Israeli government or they aren’t allowed to report and have been feeding them misleading and false information. Israel has been treating all Palestinians (not only Hamas!) like animals for years, even saying it on TV and social media, they’re even considering nuking the place!
That’s all i have to say, sorry for the long post
Sources: I’m a Historian, I’ve been studying the Palestine-Israel situation for years, and my GD is a reporter that was there when the whole thing started

maddyone

I’d definitely recommend going to the Anne Frank House though, as it’s such an important part of the history.
(The cheese and wine evening cruise around the canals is worth doing too.)

👍 thanks.
We are doing an evening river cruise to see the Christmas light show on the canals. I think a hot beverage is included!
The dates for Anne Frank's House are released online every Tuesday, 6 weeks in advance.

Anyone who thinks that Jews were all born into wealthy banking families should maybe read Hadley Freeman's House of Glass, which is a personal history of three generations of her family. The reader is introduced in that book to her grandparents who lived a hand to mouth, subsistence level existence in catholic Poland. Fleeing the prejudices of that country which often resulted in pogroms to a more liberal France where the next generation did prosper through hard work and business acumen before WW2 intervened. She does resoundingly affirm that to believe the Jewish people per se are somehow born into wealth is a misnomer. In any event time and time again they have had to leave where they have settledo start all over again with only the clothes they stood up in.

I remember reading the diary of Anne Frank when I was 13 years old at my convent school. At one point I felt I had morphed into her as I had dark brown hair and eyes. The other girls thought so too. So many years later and the emotions from that reading experience are still lingering.

The words that come to mind rather than rich are hardworking, enterprising and in many cases talented.
That's probably a fair description. And like tickingbird said, it depends on the family you are born into, and that family's circle of acquaintances. And their jobs and aspirations.
Regardless of race or religion.

I’ve just looked it up, The National Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam is due to open in March 2024.

I’d definitely recommend going to the Anne Frank House though, as it’s such an important part of the history.
(The cheese and wine evening cruise around the canals is worth doing too.)

Joseann

tickingbird I've sent you a pm, it's complicated.

While I think about it, since Anne Frank has been mentioned twice, has anyone visited the house, and if so, is it worth doing the Resistance Museum before or after please? Oh, and the Jewish Museum? I am going to Amsterdam next month.

As GrannyGravy says, the Anne Frank house tends to have long queues. You can book online before you go but I’m not sure if that makes any difference as I went a few years ago before online booking. We did go to the Resistance Museum only a few months ago. We didn’t book, just walked there and walked straight in, no queues. It was a very good museum, we spent about three hours there, although they say two is enough, it really isn’t. It’s a fair walk back to the Anne Frank House from there though, but pleasant. I can’t remember seeing a Holocaust museum in Amsterdam, maybe it’s new, but a few years ago we chanced across a small theatre whilst walking around Amsterdam, and it’s a museum. We went in and it turned out to be the place where the Nazis brought Jewish families that they’d rounded up for deportation. It was the Jewish theatre pre war and I think was in a predominantly Jewish area. It turned out to be an interesting but poignant little museum and definitely worth a visit, but we only spent about an hour there.

Franbern

As a child in immediate post-war East London, I was always puzzled about these stories of rich jews. (and wondered why I was the exception). Nearly half my Primary school came from local jewish families, none I knew even owned their homes they lived in, let alone their own business. Never knew anyone who owned their own home!!!!
My Dad did come from more recent refugees, but my Mum's family were very long established in London . All were pretty hard -up, and were employed as Tailors, dressmakers, hat makers, furriers. Not a single one was the Boss!!!

The words that come to mind rather than rich are hardworking, enterprising and in many cases talented.

As a child in immediate post-war East London, I was always puzzled about these stories of rich jews. (and wondered why I was the exception). Nearly half my Primary school came from local jewish families, none I knew even owned their homes they lived in, let alone their own business. Never knew anyone who owned their own home!!!!
My Dad did come from more recent refugees, but my Mum's family were very long established in London . All were pretty hard -up, and were employed as Tailors, dressmakers, hat makers, furriers. Not a single one was the Boss!!!

GrannyGravy13

Joseann

tickingbird I've sent you a pm, it's complicated.

While I think about it, since Anne Frank has been mentioned twice, has anyone visited the house, and if so, is it worth doing the Resistance Museum before or after please? Oh, and the Jewish Museum? I am going to Amsterdam next month.

Anne Frank’s house is rather underwhelming, the queue is usually very long and it’s a case of shuffling along with the flow once inside.

If you want to visit any museums in Amsterdam in December it’s best to pre-book

👍
Yes, good idea, I'm trying to decide which to prioritise.

I know my mum fretted over horrible world events, I guess that's where I get it from.
I think most of us do fret TerriBull. It's because we care. It's not just about the numbers killed now or in the past, it's because each individual is a real person with a life and dreams.

Joseann

tickingbird I've sent you a pm, it's complicated.

While I think about it, since Anne Frank has been mentioned twice, has anyone visited the house, and if so, is it worth doing the Resistance Museum before or after please? Oh, and the Jewish Museum? I am going to Amsterdam next month.

Anne Frank’s house is rather underwhelming, the queue is usually very long and it’s a case of shuffling along with the flow once inside.

If you want to visit any museums in Amsterdam in December it’s best to pre-book

tickingbird I've sent you a pm, it's complicated.

While I think about it, since Anne Frank has been mentioned twice, has anyone visited the house, and if so, is it worth doing the Resistance Museum before or after please? Oh, and the Jewish Museum? I am going to Amsterdam next month.

Many Jewish people hid their wealth/money, if they had money, in accounts in Switzerland. Much has never been claimed because there was no one left to claim it, and even when there was, the Swiss made it so difficult to claim that many gave up. They simply couldn’t provide all the evidence that the Swiss required since everything was taken from them. In the concentration camps they could have been killed simply for hiding a small photograph of their family. They had no documentation to prove who they were after the war, and it is believed that the Swiss have benefited hugely from their acquisition of much Jewish money, which was never returned.
Likewise the Germans stole everything from the Jews and benefited enormously from all this stolen wealth. They have paid reparations but again, made it difficult to claim, and the amounts nowhere near compensated for what was lost.

You are claiming that there was a rational reason for people to hate Jews ie. they were jealous of their success. There wasn't a reason. It was visceral racism and scapegoating of "others".

About three million of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish. The other three million came from all the other countries occupied by the Nazis. My understanding from my reading and travels is that many Polish Jews were poor, but many had small farms and some built up viable businesses from the farming, which often made the also poor Catholic population resentful, leading to their acceptance of the Jews being removed by the Nazis. Other Jews in Poland had businesses in the towns and cities. The Jews were increasingly becoming professional although as numbers were restricted at the universities, it was a difficult path to becoming a doctor or lawyer. Nonetheless some did.
My impression from my reading is that Jewish families in many of the other occupied states were relatively comfortable and/or professional. Many had their own businesses, hence on Crystal Night we saw the Star of David drawn on shop and business windows if they were owned by Jews. Everyone knows the story of Anne Frank, and their’s was a typical, comfortable middle class family. The family moved from Germany to Holland because of increasing antisemitism in Germany. The father had his own business and employees and it was sufficiently successful to enable the family to live for two years in hiding, with the practical help from their employees.
Many Jewish people are successful. They work hard and become successful, but certainly in the past, there were many very poor Jewish families in Poland, Russia, Belarus, and other Eastern European countries. Many were poor here in Britain when they escaped the pogroms and settled here.