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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

M0nica Mon 06-Nov-23 19:54:38

I am absolutely not attacking multiculturism, but I am saying that as a country we are getting very like the emperor with his new clothes, because we want to believe something we do aand ignore all the evidence that indicates when it is going wrong.

Take Suella Bravaman and her belief that if you sleep on the streets in a tent, it is a lifestyle choice. Presumably if you are really homeless you will sleep outside without a tent and would turn one down if offered.

We do too much of this sort of thinking and it that that is feeding the current wave of anti-semitism.

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 19:04:15

I’m not stereotyping any group. I’m asking why a community is so feared and pandered to. That’s a valid question and one which many commentators from all parties has voiced of late. It’s not about Israel and Palestine; it’s about the UK and what has been allowed to happen.

Anniebach Mon 06-Nov-23 18:26:26

A sensitive thread has become yet another hatred thread

Jackiest Mon 06-Nov-23 18:20:50

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

growstuff Mon 06-Nov-23 18:13:57

tickingbird

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

And some would say divisive.

You have made it clear that you object to discrimination against Jews and I would agree with you. However, you are prepared to stereotype another group, which is often discriminated against.

I really do despair.

Joseann Mon 06-Nov-23 18:10:33

GrannyGravy13

Callistemon21

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

Well it definitely didn’t go to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza.

That's what is so sad and frustrating. With all the aid and support pouring in, the inhabitants of Gaza could, over the years, have had it all - a prospering, peaceful land. But the money was all being squandered on missiles, weapons and fancy lifestyles.

varian Mon 06-Nov-23 18:09:05

Would the world not be a better place if we all listened to Hope Not Hate?

hopenothate.org.uk/

merlotgran Mon 06-Nov-23 17:58:12

TerriBull

Having got up at stupid o'clock this morning to come to this forum with my thoughts, as so much of this often on my mind, I went back to bed and returning now . Of course there are several threads on the subject already so at the risk of going over well trodden ground, I suppose my thoughts are very much reflected by many of us who feel the despair of violence without wanting to take sides. I'm nevertheless haunted by the fact that babies, children the old and defenceless were harmed in a pre meditated and brutal way, a deliberate act of callousness, without trying to suggest that The Palestinian people are in any way deserving of the retributions they are experiencing.

Whilst I'm not suggesting that everyone who marches with the pro Palestinians are doing so to intimidate our Jewish community, I strongly believe there are those who do just that and are spoiling for a fight. I think allowing a march on Armistice Day is inappropriate and has all the potential of spilling over into violence. I hate! hate! the way the Jewish community are being scapegoated and forced to live under a cloak of fear and to wonder if this is going to end in history repeating itself for the umpteenth time, are we not better than that now, have we not moved on at all? sad How would any of us feel if we were part of the Jewish population and possibly feel the police and powers that be are not doing enough to protect them.

👏👏👏

GrannyGravy13 Mon 06-Nov-23 17:57:39

Callistemon21

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

Well it definitely didn’t go to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza.

Callistemon21 Mon 06-Nov-23 17:55:56

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

maddyone Mon 06-Nov-23 17:54:10

Meryl words fail me.

MerylStreep Mon 06-Nov-23 17:52:54

I wonder how much this hotel costs per night.

maddyone Mon 06-Nov-23 17:52:34

tickingbird I pray that your grandchildren will be able to live in peace and harmony in the UK, but I fear it may not be the case sadly. I’m afraid for all our Jewish people in this country at the moment. I’m saddened, greatly, by the hatred on our streets every weekend. And make no mistake, what we are witnessing is hatred. What have we come to?

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 17:09:06

Meryl Streep
I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

That’s enough to make me weep.

Like Saddam, Gadaffi, Mugabe etc. Living obscenely wealthy lives whilst their people rot in poverty.

Oreo Mon 06-Nov-23 16:53:47

tickingbird

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

I would say your comments are truthful and reasonable, this country has got itself into a real mess through immigration.
Why oh why do governments and police treat a certain section with kid gloves?

MerylStreep Mon 06-Nov-23 16:50:11

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:49:08

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

Ilovecheese Mon 06-Nov-23 15:47:41

But tickingbird your comment was divisive.

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:33:08

westendgirl

You illustrate my point beautifully but it’s not me you should be addressing your second paragraph to.

westendgirl Mon 06-Nov-23 15:27:53

Ticking bird you have made some unsupported claims here and I find much of what you say quite divisive. Then some of the government do not help by their rhetoric , aiming to stir up division.

We have to learn to live together , in peace and with tolerance.
Terribull thank you for your calm, measured posts, expressing what I feel.

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:13:40

Unfortunately the police and the powers that be are terrified of one particular community and what has always bothered me is why is there so much blame placed onto the British and the west in general, and excuses made by the liberal left when Muslim terrorists attack us? Look how they have taken to the streets over this. Why are Muslims only bothered about other Muslims? Why aren’t they hurt and upset when non Muslims are being killed. Why don’t they take to the streets when Isis, Iran, The Taliban et al are butchering Muslims? They hate the west.

I 100% agree with curtaintwitcher.

We’ve allowed unfettered immigration into this country, mostly Muslim. We’ve encouraged immigrants to follow their own culture even though it clashes with our own and like sheep many still won’t say or do anything because they’re too cowed or brainwashed. I won’t lie, I’m terrified for my grandchildren.

TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 14:57:26

Like you Joseann, recently found out through Ancestry DNA that my paternal grandfather was half Jewish, that side emanated from Alsace, my mother's maiden name was French. I thought for a long time they were possibly Huguenots no evidence of them being catholic like the majority in France. I so wish my mum was still here to have let her know that, both my parents were very catholic I imagine they would have found that quite a surprise.!

Joseann Mon 06-Nov-23 14:54:11

the march was never going anywhere near the Cenotaph I know London is a big place, but if the demonstrators cross the Thames at Millbank they are pretty close (5 minutes) to Whitehall. It's the aftermath that is dangerous, like on the tube and in the neighbouring streets.

TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 14:49:16

Thank you Monica, SueDonim

I also went to a catholic convent school, with a protestant intake. Those protestant girls who filed out when we , the catholic contingent, were forced up into the chapel for a saints day mass were often "othered" by the nuns with a whole load of "pray for their protestant souls" and other drivel. Quite honestly I thought they were wrong to crank up their obvious dislike for the protestant faith,but of course I couldn't say so then we weren't allowed any dissenting point of view. I don't really think those Christian sectarian divisions existed in 60s England, but they, our nuns were mainly southern Irish and possibly those innermost feelings were instilled in their native Ireland and of course we know how the catholic church since its inception deviated from the very essence of Jesus who was a beacon of tolerance and they being anything but.

There is an organisation called Hope not Hate, because the world could really do with a strong dose of that right now I clicked on to their website thinking there might be mention of their support for the Jewish community at this time. It does seem their main concern is with the far right, Tommy Robinson for example. Well of course the far right are certainly concerning, but it does appear to me that the Jewish community suffer from a three pronged assault, The far right, the far left and militant Muslims, supporters of Hamas. As far as the far right and the far left are concerned, imo there is little to choose between them, both equally fascist in their illiberal outlook of not allowing any dissenting point of view. However, all three factions are extremes and the majority of us don't fall between those narrow parameters. Maybe we could convey that to our Jewish posters, the people that would seek to persecute your communities are minorities that don't represent the majority, we're quieter and they are loud in their respective echo chambers. Even if there are 100,000 marching through London as a percentage that is infinitesimal, and they attract the ridiculous who seek to trot out that cliche of being on "the right side of history" such as for example "Queers Supporting Palestine" were one such contingent marching along, right side of history they may consider themselves to be, but the wrong side of an organisation such as Hamas if they were ever to live under such a regime. Naive doesn't even begin to describe their stance, a bit like the young school girls who were beckoned by ISIS and then found out just what it is to lose freedoms and end up a subjugated non person.

It isn't an attack on multi culturism per se, because often that can work wonderfully well, no race, ethnicity is a homogeneous mass, all will encompass the very best and very worst of humanity, it's just some shout louder than others, but maybe the quieter ones amongst us all need to stand up and say when the next banner along the lines of "rid the world of Jews" is conspicuously waved, "you don't stand for us, that opinion is wholly unacceptable!"

GrannyGravy13 Mon 06-Nov-23 14:47:16

bmacca

The Cenotaph hysteria about the plan for a Palestine march on November 11 is a totally manufactured controversy – the march was on the Saturday not the Sunday and was never going anywhere near the Cenotaph.

Apparently, it is ok for London to host 9 football matches, the Lord Mayor’s Show and myriad other events on 11 November, but not a march calling for a ceasefire on the day which marks the armistice – or ceasefire – at the end of the First World War.

The Lord Mayors Show dates back over 800 years. It is an integral part of the London calendar.

Any football matches being played early will observe the two minutes silence.

Having watched the Free Palestine protests and heard the antisemitic chants, seen the antisemitic banners along with the calls for Jihad, it is not something I wish to see in the capital on 11/11.

The Jewish silent vigils have been held with such dignity and totally peaceful, despite having the photos of those held hostage torn down, and in one town in U.K. where they had tied balloons to represent the babies and children held hostage in Gaza had them popped and/or severed from their tethers.