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"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"
A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,
"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.
Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.
Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.
In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"
Sorry foxie48 I no longer trust 'Elders' and betters (Tony Blair and others), or the BBC who have plenty of bias on show for all to see
speaking of 'see' it should have been 'sea' in my other post, fat fingers.
"And another interesting development is the publication by what's called the "Elders", a group of retired prime ministers, presidents and elder statesmen and women from around the world, of a statement condemning Hamas but also saying that "Destroying Gaza and killing civilians is not making Israel safer. These actions will breed more terrorism across the region and beyond. There is no military solution to the conflict."
Taken from the BBC website.
merlotgran so very true
7th Oct only happened because a peaceable deal was close to closing
Spot on! Hamas couldn’t wait any longer.
Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin were both assassinated by their own extremists because they were steering their countries towards a peaceful co-existence. How are things ever going to be resolved when there are those who will never let it happen.
Good points namsnanny
7th Oct only happened because a peaceable deal was close to closing.
I think that is the only fact most on GN agree with.
There after the problem lies in who stoked what fire, and how to deal with it.
As for new terrorist being made in Gaza, has anyone seen the school children taken out of school to March chanting from the river to the see, in this country?
They were around 7-10y
So they have been indoctrinated before 7/10.
It would seem new terrorist supporters are being educated in hate here, in our schools.
Whilst this goes on how can we work towards or hope for a peaceful solution?
Your right tickingbird, it is so depressing.
As for volunteers, those of us with family serving in the armed forces are hoping and praying that they will not be deployed into the area.
Katie59
So it’s no surrender by either side so either remove Palestine or remove Israel.
Any volunteers?.
Hamas needs to release all the hostages, those that are alive along with the bodies of those who are dead in order for them to have a burial.
There is no situation whereby Governments should have to surrender to terrorists.
So it’s no surrender by either side so either remove Palestine or remove Israel.
Any volunteers?.
I watched a BBC programme on iplayer last week on the birth of Israel. It was shocking the terrible things that have happened in the past. Truly awful what’s been done to Palestinians and the Israelis.
However, what struck me was the aged Palestinian men that appeared saying the same thing again and again. They won’t accept 99% of land returned. They won’t accept less than 100%. Where do you go from there?
I find it really depressing.
tickingbird
I stopped engaging with this thread a while ago; just a waste of time. I’ve posted here and there but don’t really bother anymore. It really is Groundhog Day on here. The same intransigent posters repeating again and again their solutions to this dreadful situation.
A two state solution blah blah blah……
Hamas don’t and won’t accept that. So that just leaves the only option - get rid of Hamas. It’s not rocket science.
Me too.
Too many back seat drivers who know so much more than the people on the ground.
Those who are actually facing their own death at the hands of those who burned babies in ovens.
Those who have to make life and death decisions in a split second.
Those who have to bear the mental and physical scars of their own actions.
Whilst they do all this, they have to also bear the slings and arrows from those who virtue signal their desire that everything would be fine, if only everyone who disagrees with them get better educated.
All the while the Hamas leaders live comfortably on benefits in this country, or in luxury in Qatar.
Whats to stop a Hamas Mark 2 from being formed
Absolutely no guarantees, look at Northern Ireland, they now have The New IRA , where there are terrorist tendencies on going peace can never be guaranteed.
tickingbird
I stopped engaging with this thread a while ago; just a waste of time. I’ve posted here and there but don’t really bother anymore. It really is Groundhog Day on here. The same intransigent posters repeating again and again their solutions to this dreadful situation.
A two state solution blah blah blah……
Hamas don’t and won’t accept that. So that just leaves the only option - get rid of Hamas. It’s not rocket science.
OK! So let's assume it's possible to get rid of Hamas (including the bosses in Qatar) what then?
There will still be over 2 million Gazans. Who will govern them? Does anybody seriously think they'll forget what's happening now or has happened in the past? What's to stop Hamas Mark 2 from being formed?
Don’t worry Paddyanne, no one has claimed that anything in Israel has been done in your name.
Galaxy, I agree that the situation on British streets is worrying. Demonstration after demonstration, vandalism, and now you tell us that the Green Party have published a list of MPs who ‘voted the wrong way.’ I wonder what they think that will achieve? I hope that none of those MPs will be targeted, attacked, or have death threats made against them on that wonderful instrument of free speech, Twitter, now known as X.
Yes and good luck with it on the streets of this country too. Pro Palestine protestors have just vandalised the office of one of the labour mps who voted against ceasefire.
Good job by the Green Party too who have publicised a handy list of those who voted 'the wrong way'.
Yes and Tony Blair insisted there were weapons of mass destruction in IRAQ ..look how that ended !! There were NO weapons and tens or hundreds of thousands died and left behind a worse government than the one that they blasted out of control and a country needing rebuilt from the ground up
Now you ask that we believe a right wing monster with his roots firmly in the old testament ..an eye for an eye ...or lets just kill them all .THATS not how to gain peace .Its not being done in my name despite the two main unionist parties supporting Israel and the world IS waking up to the abhorrent treatment of the Palestinian people for DECADES.
Its not rocket science, it is just bloody obvious
Yes it’s obvious, Hamas were elected to govern Gaza.
The money which was meant for improving the lot of the civilian population which elected them has been funnelled into offshore accounts, building tunnels, weaponry, large property portfolio along with keeping the three top bods of Hamas in luxury in Qatar.
Hamas don’t give a damn about the civilian casualties, their only reason d’etre is to wipe Jews of off the face of the Earth.
Yes there needs to be negotiations, but does anyone honestly think that Hamas will negotiate, or even then honour any deals brokered?
There was an interview on the radio 4 one o'clock news with someone who went down the tunnels under Gaza in 2021 and spoke to members of Hamas. She said she was shocked at how young they were but most chilling for me was that they said they joined Hamas because there was nothing else for them. The only way to defeat Hamas to change that, the young of Gaza need better options than joining a terrorist organisation. It is not rocket science it is just b....y obvious.
Indeed, illegal expansion since 1948, and what Netanyahu is doing right now- will make this extremely difficult- unless vast amount of land is given back. Will Israel agree to this.
We can't put the clocks back- a two state solutions, if Israel had kept to the land given in 1948- could have been possible. But now? You are right that it will be extremely difficult, perhaps impossible. So what then?
'Rocket' science is the worst possible term to use in the current circumstances, truly.
I stopped engaging with this thread a while ago; just a waste of time. I’ve posted here and there but don’t really bother anymore. It really is Groundhog Day on here. The same intransigent posters repeating again and again their solutions to this dreadful situation.
A two state solution blah blah blah……
Hamas don’t and won’t accept that. So that just leaves the only option - get rid of Hamas. It’s not rocket science.
Well said merlotgran. 👏
ATM there's little evidence of it being the main control centre
Are we not being too impatient for the evidence?
This isn’t a reality TV show. Are we expecting signposts - This Way to the Tunnels or a big Reveal?
The IDF have to proceed with caution. They have already found some evidence but there are likely to be booby traps and false trails. If there is a sophisticated network of tunnels under the hospital the entrances could be miles away.
They have a difficult task ahead of them.
I wouldn't expect the US to say anything different but I wonder what is being said behind closed doors. I'm not saying Hamas hasn't had a presence there but ATM there's little evidence of it being the main control centre
Adding my two penn’orth ...
“However, the US said it remained convinced that Hamas had been using the hospital.
John Kirby, the White House’s national security spokesman, said: “We have our own intelligence that convinces us that Hamas was using Al-Shifa as a command and control node, and most likely as well, as a storage facility.
“They were sheltering themselves in the hospital, using the hospital as a shield against military action and placing the patients and medical staff at greater risk. We are still convinced of the soundness of that intelligence.”
If northern Gaza is occupied by IDF what happens next?, most likely the US will force Israel into a ceasefire, with so many refugees in the south Hamas will just melt into the civilian population
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