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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

bmacca Fri 17-Nov-23 03:17:18

Yep, I’m concerned about posts on here too. It seems over 11,000 dead isn’t enough for you. A whole bunch of you are persistently arguing for genocide. Shameful

maddyone Thu 16-Nov-23 23:46:42

I started a post and then deleted it. I can’t write down what I’m feeling about this thread except to say I’m concerned about some of the posts on here.
There is no justification for what Hamas did on 7/10 and there is no justification for querying everything that the IDF are doing.

Galaxy Thu 16-Nov-23 22:55:46

There is absolutely no other group where that sentence would be used after a mention of hostages.

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 22:17:28

Sorry, but any resolution is going to need adults in the room. Going on about "he started it" won't work.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 16-Nov-23 21:54:12

A ceasefire has to have both sides in agreement, I am not aware of Hamas calling for one, or even the prospect of them complying with one.

Hamas started this conflict, all they have to do is release the innocent Israeli hostages, stop using innocent civilians as human shields, then discussions can commence.

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 21:47:20

Elegran

This photograph shows Israeli protesters calling for a ceasefire. I can't read most of their placards, but one of them says in English "Do not answer a war crime with a thousand more war crimes."

If there isn't a ceasefire soon, where will it end? How much resentment will follow on from the retaliation to Israel's retaliation to the atrocity, which was a retaliation to the resentment of Israelis to the presence in their promised land of Palestinians - each step taking both sides nearer to mutual destruction.

Israeli protesters calling for a ceasefire.

I honestly don't think Netanyahu cares about the future. What he's doing now will breed even more resentment for years after all of us on GN have gone. He's setting up any attempt at conciliation to fail.

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 21:44:11

Oreo

Given that almost half the small population are under 18, why exactly do they need so many hospitals.
Why does the Al-Shifa hospital cover 22 acres including outbuildings.
It isn’t just about bed numbers. Nor is it a conspiracy theory.
The IDF have reliable intelligence about weapon stores under hospitals, they aren’t going into them on a whim.The last thing they want to do is waste any time or efforts on unproductive targets. They also took in some food water and medications.
They are trying their hardest to not hurt or kill anyone that isn’t hamas around the hospital.

Are you aware that the biggest group of users of hospital services (after the elderly) are babies? That's the first reason why hospitals are needed.

Not only that but the hospitals are relatively small and Gaza doesn't have an efficient primary care health system, so people go to a hospital/clinic if they're ill. Even so, Gaza still has only half the number of beds per capita that the UK has.

I have no doubt that Hamas uses public buildings to hide tunnels and underground stores. However, unless you happen to be some kind of spy operating in Gaza itself, you are complicit in spreading unsubstantiated tittle tattle about what exactly is there.

Elegran Thu 16-Nov-23 21:42:40

This photograph shows Israeli protesters calling for a ceasefire. I can't read most of their placards, but one of them says in English "Do not answer a war crime with a thousand more war crimes."

If there isn't a ceasefire soon, where will it end? How much resentment will follow on from the retaliation to Israel's retaliation to the atrocity, which was a retaliation to the resentment of Israelis to the presence in their promised land of Palestinians - each step taking both sides nearer to mutual destruction.

Israeli protesters calling for a ceasefire.

merlotgran Thu 16-Nov-23 21:27:12

Thank you, GG13. Neither have I.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 16-Nov-23 21:19:44

I have nothing to add

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 20:29:42

Oreo

Given that almost half the small population are under 18, why exactly do they need so many hospitals.
Why does the Al-Shifa hospital cover 22 acres including outbuildings.
It isn’t just about bed numbers. Nor is it a conspiracy theory.
The IDF have reliable intelligence about weapon stores under hospitals, they aren’t going into them on a whim.The last thing they want to do is waste any time or efforts on unproductive targets. They also took in some food water and medications.
They are trying their hardest to not hurt or kill anyone that isn’t hamas around the hospital.

Sorry, but I wouldn't believe anything IDF (or Hamas) claims is "reliable".

Without any verifiable evidence, this is spreading rumour by social media.

The IDF has already been caught out posting faked pictures about "finding" weapons, etc.

I have no doubt some of the claims are true, but I also have no doubt that some of them have been - er - "embellished".

MerylStreep Thu 16-Nov-23 20:28:22

I don’t know why the photo didn’t load.
Oreo it was meant to be eliminated.

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 20:25:42

maddyone

Oreo

Anyone ever wondered why Gaza had 36 hospitals built? A small country with a small population, almost half of them children I believe.The Al-Shifa hospital covers 22 acres.
Hamas use the hospitals as command centres and weapons storage all connected by tunnels.That’s what they’ve been spending money on.Ten years ago Amnesty found that they were using wards for torture and killing of enemies.
Hospitals have now lost the sacrosanct aspect as they are full of hamas fighters.It’s impossible for the IDF not to enter them.

This is interesting. It begs the question why?

Well, it would beg that question if it could be verified.

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 20:24:34

Oreo

That may be true in the wider world and could go both ways
Fleurpepper
However have seen no instances of this on GN threads.Most of us will be women on here and feel great pity for children anywhere in the world who are suffering and imagine if they were our own.

Specasavers?

growstuff Thu 16-Nov-23 20:24:02

Elegran Thank you for your post.

Oreo Thu 16-Nov-23 20:21:49

That may be true in the wider world and could go both ways
Fleurpepper
However have seen no instances of this on GN threads.Most of us will be women on here and feel great pity for children anywhere in the world who are suffering and imagine if they were our own.

Fleurpepper Thu 16-Nov-23 20:17:13

some babies and children seem to have so much more 'value and worth' for some, sadly.

Oreo Thu 16-Nov-23 20:16:38

Fleurpepper

MerylStreep

Fleurpepper
Isreal have no credible defence 7th October?
No punishment by the Israelis is bad enough for what they did that night/ morning.
At least there’s some good news.
The Heathen who kidnapped Shani Louk has been illuminated.
He’s the one on the left in the truck.

I am sorry, I do not understand your post.

The word illuminated? Am hoping it's a typo for exterminated or annihilated.

Callistemon21 Thu 16-Nov-23 20:14:08

GrannyGravy13

I agree Callistemon21 that gorgeous little baby, my heart weeps for him and the other hostages.

And when I see an innocent little Palestinian girl lost in the rubble, bewildered, crying.
Also the babies in the hospitals in Gaza, why do they have to have their faces scrubbed clean with such vigour by a medical person - they've been through enough, treat them more gently!
They scrub them as if they're Brilloing a saucepan.

Oreo Thu 16-Nov-23 20:13:12

The oracle at Delphi or the one a bit nearer?😄

Fleurpepper Thu 16-Nov-23 20:12:47

MerylStreep

Fleurpepper
Isreal have no credible defence 7th October?
No punishment by the Israelis is bad enough for what they did that night/ morning.
At least there’s some good news.
The Heathen who kidnapped Shani Louk has been illuminated.
He’s the one on the left in the truck.

I am sorry, I do not understand your post.

MerylStreep Thu 16-Nov-23 20:11:05

Oreo

True, very many will know and many may also support hamas.

Perhaps we could consult our soothsayer. 😉

GrannyGravy13 Thu 16-Nov-23 20:07:45

As unpalatable it is for westerners, there is undoubtedly support for Hamas in Gaza, The West Bank along with sympathetic Arab countries.

Oreo Thu 16-Nov-23 20:06:40

Taking the moral high ground isn’t much use against an enemy like hamas.They would be delighted by it’s weakness and attack again and again.Israel are forced into this war and have no real alternative but to do what they are now doing.

MerylStreep Thu 16-Nov-23 20:06:24

Fleurpepper
Isreal have no credible defence 7th October?
No punishment by the Israelis is bad enough for what they did that night/ morning.
At least there’s some good news.
The Heathen who kidnapped Shani Louk has been illuminated.
He’s the one on the left in the truck.