True, very many will know and many may also support hamas.
Cataract surgery including an i stent fitting.
“We are killing like we haven’t killed since 1967”
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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel
(449 Posts)"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"
A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,
"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.
Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.
Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.
In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"
Oreo
Thousands of Gaza citizens do know where the tunnels are, they work in them. That complex takes an awful lot of maintenance 😉
No, say huge numbers in Israel and around the world, Jews, all of them
At this point you cannot trust what either Hamas or Israel say. Hamas are despicable terrorists and Israel are looking to justify their continuing levelling of Gaza. America and the UK have to toe the line between acknowledging the "indiscriminate" bombing that is taking place and yet supporting their key ally israel.
its just a vast tragedy, but Israel will come out of it looking far worse than Hamas, as their revenge-driven response will be perceived as far worse than Hamas's original atrocity due to the order of magnitudes more people it is killing and how it is literally leveling a bustling city.
Israel have no credible defence for the scale of this destruction, but they have already gone so far that there's no easy way of turning back. They took the moral high ground and then threw it under tanks.
Fleurpepper
Oh yes, all the babies, all the children.
The angriest of people in Israel, against Netanyahu and co, are the families of those babies, and other hostages.
Says you.
No innocent people deserve to get killed, including the ones murdered by hamas.
If the IDF were actually bombing the hospitals that would be different, even if hamas were hiding in centres underneath.
They aren’t bombing tho, they are on the ground searching for hamas in and around the hospital’s vast complex.
Oreo
Leila Moran cannot know what tunnels hamas has built and where.Visitors to hospitals would never know the extent of what went on either. Nobody who lives and works in Gaza will know everything hamas does, and neither will they be able to speak openly about it if they did find out.
So they don't deserve to get killed.
Leila Moran cannot know what tunnels hamas has built and where.Visitors to hospitals would never know the extent of what went on either. Nobody who lives and works in Gaza will know everything hamas does, and neither will they be able to speak openly about it if they did find out.
It’s easy to feel for the Palestinians who were made homeless at any time in the past and those who are now suffering for what hamas, terrorists that they voted in to govern them have done to bring all this down around their heads.At the same time Israel is surrounded by Muslim countries many of which, if not all, have terrorist groups eager to kill as many Jews as possible.Surrounded, literally.They will do what they have to do to protect the State Of Israel and to ensure that such barbarism never again happens to their citizens.
Mistakes will happen in any military situation but they are trying to pinpoint legitimate targets, something that terrorists never bother to do.
The hospitals seem to have been built by a number of charities, the Al-shifa dates back to when the Brits were in charge, the Baptist church has built a church, a Qatari charity, an Indonesian charity, UNRWA etc etc. tbh I don't think they were built to house terrorists operations but if they have been taken over to do that I'm surprised that MSF and the visiting foreign doctors were not aware of what was going on. Layla Michelle Moran was interviewed on the radio 4 news this evening, she's Palestinian and has family in Gaza. Please listen to what she said, I found her interview so sensible and touching. I read comments on here and think some people have so much hatred for Hamas that it is clouding their awareness of the plight of innocent Palestinians. AND no, I am not excusing anything Hamas has done but IMO it does not justify what is happening in Gaza.
Given that almost half the small population are under 18, why exactly do they need so many hospitals.
Why does the Al-Shifa hospital cover 22 acres including outbuildings.
It isn’t just about bed numbers. Nor is it a conspiracy theory.
The IDF have reliable intelligence about weapon stores under hospitals, they aren’t going into them on a whim.The last thing they want to do is waste any time or efforts on unproductive targets. They also took in some food water and medications.
They are trying their hardest to not hurt or kill anyone that isn’t hamas around the hospital.
Oreo
Anyone ever wondered why Gaza had 36 hospitals built? A small country with a small population, almost half of them children I believe.The Al-Shifa hospital covers 22 acres.
Hamas use the hospitals as command centres and weapons storage all connected by tunnels.That’s what they’ve been spending money on.Ten years ago Amnesty found that they were using wards for torture and killing of enemies.
Hospitals have now lost the sacrosanct aspect as they are full of hamas fighters.It’s impossible for the IDF not to enter them.
This is interesting. It begs the question why?
Like Foxie, I have no difficulty in separating the two things.
On the one hand I have the utmost sympathy for the Jewish Diaspora, who have been the recipients of antisemitism for at least 2,000 years, falsely blamed for all kinds of things, and victims of various pogroms culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust. After those horrors were revealed, the State of Israel was formed and by international agreement, they were resettled in their former homeland.
On the other hand, they didn't have vacant possession of that ancient homeland- living in that land were Palestinians who had been there for generations. This was not pleasing to those who resented the presence of these (to them) polluters of the holy land that was promised to Moses and the prophets when they left Egypt in search of a permanent home. That institutionalised resentment has rumbled on since 1948, and there have been more incidents in recent years where Israeli troops have used excessive and disproportionate force when policing Palestinian neighbourhoods.
Reading the report in this link (Note the date - well before the 7/10 attacks) lphr.org.uk/latest-news/lphr-2019-year-in-review-child-rights-bulletin/ I think that Israel has sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind, and are now escalating into a full-blown war their irritation at the presence of these unbelievers and their anger at the violence which was unleashed against them.
"The key incidents and statistics outlined in this bulletin . . . are collated from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA) and local human rights organisations: Defence for Children International-Palestine (DCIP), Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights, Military Court Watch, B’Tselem, and the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD)."
"It outlines the specific rights of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) that apply to the key incidents affecting Palestinian children in the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt). As the occupying power, Israel has legal responsibilities under international conventions, including the UNCRC, for the safety, welfare and human rights protection of civilians living in the oPt."
"Five of these children were members of the same family, killed in an airstrike against two family homes built of tin shacks in Deir El-Balah on 14 November 2019. Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights reports that the children killed in the Deir-El Balah airstrike include 13-year-old Wasim Al-Sawarka, 12-year-old Muhannad Al-Sawarka, 2-year-old Mu’ath Al-Sawarka, 3-year-old Salim-Al-Sawarka and 3-month-old Firas Al-Sawarka. After an investigation into the incident, the Israeli military stated on 24 December 2019 that they made a “mistake” in attacking the two homes. An internal investigation concluded that the Al-Sawarka homes were mis-labelled in the army database as a “military compound” used by Islamic Jihad. B’Tselem reports that contrary to the military’s official statements, the target – the Al-Sawarka family compound – had not been reassessed for many months, and no attempt was made to ensure no civilians were on site prior to the attack. Devastating military attacks against family homes in Gaza was a key recurring feature of the military offensive on Gaza in 2014, as examined extensively in joint work by Al Mezan and LPHR."
Some of these children were young teenagers who may have been present in protests which they would have been wiser to avoid, but one incident was particularly distressing. There was one survivor - a 35 day old baby girl.
Joseann
I'll start criticising Netanyahu once the Jewish hostages are released. I know that Israel isn't perfect, but I cannot get the atrocities of October 7th out of my mind, however much I try.
Nor me.
Was just going to say this.
Germanshepherdsmum
But the opportunities that such a number offers for ‘other purposes’ are very significant.
That could very well be true, but not substantiated enough to be claimed as a fact. It's conspiracy theory territory.
Joseann
I'll start criticising Netanyahu once the Jewish hostages are released. I know that Israel isn't perfect, but I cannot get the atrocities of October 7th out of my mind, however much I try.
What about the non-Jewish hostages?
But the opportunities that such a number offers for ‘other purposes’ are very significant.
MerylStreep
Oreo
That’s an amazing number of hospitals for an area roughly the size of The Isle of White.
With a population of Birmingham and Glasgow combined.
MerylStreep
Oreo
That’s an amazing number of hospitals for an area roughly the size of The Isle of White.
Errrmmm ... it's half the number of beds England has.
I confess I had never asked myself how many hospitals Gaza had, so I looked it up.
Apparently, Gaza has 32 hospitals, but they're mainly quite small. It had 1.3 beds per 1000 inhabitants. For context, England has 2.4 and Germany has 7.8, according to the OECD. The OECD average is 5.
Oh yes, all the babies, all the children.
The angriest of people in Israel, against Netanyahu and co, are the families of those babies, and other hostages.
Oreo
That’s an amazing number of hospitals for an area roughly the size of The Isle of White.
Joseann
I'll start criticising Netanyahu once the Jewish hostages are released. I know that Israel isn't perfect, but I cannot get the atrocities of October 7th out of my mind, however much I try.
Me neither.
Anyone ever wondered why Gaza had 36 hospitals built? A small country with a small population, almost half of them children I believe.The Al-Shifa hospital covers 22 acres.
Hamas use the hospitals as command centres and weapons storage all connected by tunnels.That’s what they’ve been spending money on.Ten years ago Amnesty found that they were using wards for torture and killing of enemies.
Hospitals have now lost the sacrosanct aspect as they are full of hamas fighters.It’s impossible for the IDF not to enter them.
There's been some very interesting commentary of late, one thing of relevance that has been said now by several people is that Netanyahu has nothing to gain by stopping the incursion. Once the war stops, he is in danger of losing his position as President of Israel and having to face the corruption charges that have been made about him. He is by nature more interested in his own political survival than providing peace and safety for the citizens of Israel. I have absolutely no problem separating the State of Israel and it's actions from those of people who practice Judaism, whether they live in Israel or anywhere else and I think most intelligent thinking people are the same. Do I believe the propaganda put out by the Israeli state? Absolutely not, everything needs to be questioned and examined as closely as one needs to question the propaganda put out by Hamas. Does this make me anti semitic? Absolutely not, just cautious.
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