Net Migration Shocker

growstuff I didn't claim anything, only what I understood, which is why I pleaded ignorance.

Re temporary visas: spousal and family visas, which have very strict requirements, including proof of English competency, minimum income levels, proof of accommodation, high fees, and an annual NHS surcharge, are also temporary - they are even called temporary leave to remain. They last, in the first instance, 2 years and 9 months, and can then be renewed - for a fee and with lots of supporting evidence about the relationship, income, employment etc etc - for a further 2 years and 6 months. Nobody on a TLR visa has any recourse to public funds.

Only after 5 years, providing a shedload of conditions and criteria are met, can Indefinite Leave to Remain be applied for. It can take months to process. Once you have ILR, you can apply for citizenship.

It’s a painful and expensive process and not one that anyone undertakes lightly.

You assumed wrong. I was agreeing with nana8.

Nanna did not accusingly say They ( I was the only person to mention "far-right" at this point) do it to try and shut down discussion. You did Primrose. I did nothing to close this down and would not do do. All I am looking for is reasoned discussion without personal attacks.

Where is there a post from you that argues either way on this government's record on migration which now looks set to continue as a way of cutting workers wages?

DaisyAnneReturns

Primrose53

nanna8

Just wondering who are these ‘far-right’ people? I find labelling people or groups of people dangerous and judgemental.

Quite. They do it to try and shut down discussion.😉

As I said the words "far-right" I assume your personal attack on this subject is directed at me.

If you disagree with me wouldn't it be more adult to offer your definition of the extremes of right, and left-wing politics?

I don't have any wish to close down the discussion (yet another rule-breaking personal attack but cowardly in this instance). I do, however, prefer evidence based facts to non-factual opinions - these threads are usually assumed to be for debate not chat - there is a separate board for that.

You assumed wrong. I was agreeing with nana8.

Casdon

growstuff

M0nica

growstuffWhy do we never hear of this or see it discussed. Most foreign medical staff seem to come over and settle permanently with no plans to return..

Can you put any figures to your assertion?

Do you have the figures about foreign medical staff coming over and settling permanently, as you claim?

No, sorry, I don't have the figures on five year visas to hand, but I do know that's the normal process. My partner regularly recruits researchers from abroad on temporary visas and, as Casdon has explained, it's a headache waiting for them and also ensuring they're renewed once they run out. It used to happen in schools too.

I know the same visa process is also used in industry, my daughter is in HR and she deals with visas for foreign engineers coming to work in the UK.

Yes, it does. Both my next-door neighbours have five year visas. Both work in industry.

Primrose53

nanna8

Just wondering who are these ‘far-right’ people? I find labelling people or groups of people dangerous and judgemental.

Quite. They do it to try and shut down discussion.😉

As I said the words "far-right" I assume your personal attack on this subject is directed at me.

If you disagree with me wouldn't it be more adult to offer your definition of the extremes of right, and left-wing politics?

I don't have any wish to close down the discussion (yet another rule-breaking personal attack but cowardly in this instance). I do, however, prefer evidence based facts to non-factual opinions - these threads are usually assumed to be for debate not chat - there is a separate board for that.

Oreo I didn't say anyone has to accept what I put forward. However crime, and I do hope senior members of the government are charged appropriately, is either planned or opportunistic.

I would suggest we have seen both types from this government. We have no evidence to suggest their modus operandi has changed.

This is about immigration. NOT the covid inquiry, why have you even mentioned it in this context. Freya5

I will simplify for you Freya

The context.

1. This thread is about the latest migration figures showing the largest numbers coming in are coming for work, or for education. In both areas the numbers are agreed by the government and visas are issued.
2. Grantanow commented on government members proposal to cut visas for workers in the care sector.
3. Based on the known fact that this would, almost certainly, lead to more premature deaths among the elderly, I replied.
4. Rather than putting forward an argument to the contrary you decided on a personal attack.
5. I explained the context for my belief. It is that this government, has already been seen to neglect the elderly. I used the Covid Enquiry and the underfunding of the NHS to the detriment of all but primarily the elderly, as evidence. My conclusion was that we could be expect the government to do this again as the have set a pattern of behaviour that is plain to see.
6. As the care of the elderly is currently, and for the foreseeable future, dependent on immigration I can't see your argument that I should not be posting. It seems to be simply because you dont agree with my conclusions.

nanna8

Just wondering who are these ‘far-right’ people? I find labelling people or groups of people dangerous and judgemental.

Quite. They do it to try and shut down discussion.😉

growstuff

M0nica

growstuffWhy do we never hear of this or see it discussed. Most foreign medical staff seem to come over and settle permanently with no plans to return..

Can you put any figures to your assertion?

Do you have the figures about foreign medical staff coming over and settling permanently, as you claim?

No, sorry, I don't have the figures on five year visas to hand, but I do know that's the normal process. My partner regularly recruits researchers from abroad on temporary visas and, as Casdon has explained, it's a headache waiting for them and also ensuring they're renewed once they run out. It used to happen in schools too.

I know the same visa process is also used in industry, my daughter is in HR and she deals with visas for foreign engineers coming to work in the UK.

DaisyAnnReturns
There you go again with the ‘far right’ government stuff, do you really know what far right even means?
As to your assertion that ‘we have to accept the far right intend to kill off the elderly’ don’t think I’ve ever read such a ridiculous comment on a forum before.

M0nica

*growstuff*Why do we never hear of this or see it discussed. Most foreign medical staff seem to come over and settle permanently with no plans to return..

Can you put any figures to your assertion?

Do you have the figures about foreign medical staff coming over and settling permanently, as you claim?

No, sorry, I don't have the figures on five year visas to hand, but I do know that's the normal process. My partner regularly recruits researchers from abroad on temporary visas and, as Casdon has explained, it's a headache waiting for them and also ensuring they're renewed once they run out. It used to happen in schools too.

M0nica

*growstuff*Why do we never hear of this or see it discussed. Most foreign medical staff seem to come over and settle permanently with no plans to return..

Can you put any figures to your assertion?

Medical staff in training grades have always had to have fixed term visas to work in the NHS Monica, they run for the length of the training contract. Years ago when I worked in acute hospitals it used to cause endless headaches for hospital medical teams because the process was very slow, and left gaps in teams while visas were awaited. There’s a new visa system for needed health professionals including doctors now, introduced this year.
iasservices.org.uk/health-and-care-worker-visa/

DaisyAnneReturns

Haven't you followed the coronavirus enquiry and the government's view of economy before the frail and ill?

What has this far-right government done to the NHS? The waiting list for hospital treatment rose to a record of nearly 7.8 million in September 2023. The 18-week treatment target has not been met since 2016.

What about care? With consistent underfunding, access to publicly funded care for older adults is now limited to those with the lowest means and highest needs. Provision across the country has become fragile and fragmented, and workforce shortages limit the supply of care. With 165,000 vacancies in 2021/22, the vacancy rate in the sector has reached a new high, and the workforce has shrunk for the first time since records began. Navigating the social care system is highly complex and confusing. Nuffield Trust

Who is this intended to hurt if not the elderly and, if not intended, what on earth does it say about this government's competence, Freya?

If you can only answer with a personal attack you have no answer.

This is about immigration. NOT the covid inquiry, why have you even mentioned it in this context.

growstuffWhy do we never hear of this or see it discussed. Most foreign medical staff seem to come over and settle permanently with no plans to return..

Can you put any figures to your assertion?

M0nica

I confess that i am ignorant on this subject, but why do we not give legal immigrants time limited visas after which they are expected to return home.

Say 5 years extendable to 10, which could be made permanent in some circumstances. It seems to me that especially for medical stff, to come over here, work and link that with study to improve their qualification would benefit both this country and their country of origin when they return.

Immigrants are often given time-limited visas.

Haven't you followed the coronavirus enquiry and the government's view of economy before the frail and ill?

What has this far-right government done to the NHS? The waiting list for hospital treatment rose to a record of nearly 7.8 million in September 2023. The 18-week treatment target has not been met since 2016.

What about care? With consistent underfunding, access to publicly funded care for older adults is now limited to those with the lowest means and highest needs. Provision across the country has become fragile and fragmented, and workforce shortages limit the supply of care. With 165,000 vacancies in 2021/22, the vacancy rate in the sector has reached a new high, and the workforce has shrunk for the first time since records began. Navigating the social care system is highly complex and confusing. Nuffield Trust

Who is this intended to hurt if not the elderly and, if not intended, what on earth does it say about this government's competence, Freya?

If you can only answer with a personal attack you have no answer.

DaisyAnneReturns

Grantanow

And now we have Jenrick and Badenoch proposing to cut visas for workers in the care sector which has great difficulty attracting staff for old people's homes. Clearly they don't care about the impact on those needing care.

(Yes, I know the homes could pay more to attract UK workers but given the overall shortage of workers that simply means denuding other sectors of staff).

Perhaps we really have to accept the far-right intend to kill off the elderly.

That is the most ridiculous outburst yet , for goodness sakes. Unless of course you mean the poor elderly folk left behind, whilst their countrymen/women, rove over here, because their own countries pay even crapper wages than we do.

that's the that's what the

I promise you I would and do use those words in normal conversation maddyone, if that's the conversation is about. If someone identified with fascistic or communistic policies I would be happy to use those words too.

Extremes, by there very nature set one group above another. If you think that's okay it tells me a great deal about your view of life. As a self-confessed democrat and centrist, I heartily hope that tells you a great deal about me.

They are people on the far-right of politics nana. Are we to stop quantifying everything? What tosh. If you support something you have already identified yourself by the politics you find not only acceptable but preferable, no one else is doing that. Most people know the predilictions of the various political groups.

As for judgemental, what is wrong about making a judgement on extremes that hurt others?

According to The Guardian the Home Office doesn’t know what happened to 17000 asylum seekers whose asylum claims have been withdrawn.

Katie59

I’m surprised that students are include in the net migration figures most of them will go home. Legal migrants I don’t have a problem with, at present we are in Norway a Shengen country and every where you go Norwegians are notable by their abscence, shops , restaurants, tours, you name it.

That must have been because all the Norwegians were with us. I spent a few days in Norway last month with my partner and met loads of Norwegians.

I agree with you nanna8 and it is usually used as an insult to ‘other’ people and make them ‘less’. I’m not talking about Tommy Robinson here, just Gransnetters calling or hinting that others are far right usually, or occasionally far left.
Unpleasant behaviour from people who wouldn’t dare make such comments in real life!

I think both terms are tossed about far too much. Very often an insult to those whom we disagree with. Similar to the way people who are patently not racists are accused of same.