Electric cars - to buy or not to buy?

Luckygirl3

The quietness of EVs worries me - people will go to cross the road and get knocked over. I was nearly mangled by a tram in Manchester as it crept silently up on me.

Another misinformed individual they do make a noise, it’s a low wirring sound, probably louder than a small petrol car, hybrids are the same.

They are quiet but there is a noise just no loud revving and belching exhaust.

Our veg box delivery service have used their all electric fleet for many years.

www.eastcoastorganics.co.uk

We all resist change more as we get older but change happens and for my part it's long overdue.
I just wish public transport would improve alongside because electric or not, there will still be congestion.

The quietness of EVs worries me - people will go to cross the road and get knocked over. I was nearly mangled by a tram in Manchester as it crept silently up on me.

There are quite a few Teslas that have more miles than that and batteries are generally 90% plus, the highest milage Tesla has done 1.2 million miles with 3 battery packs, each was replaced at 75% so thats around 300,000 each battery.

I think the answer must come from improvements in battery technology already underway such as the move to solid state, the increase in solar for home charging, the "electric roads" being pioneered in Sweden etc etc. It is no good just looking at existing technology and saying that will never work.

The emission fines will start in 6mnths time in Edinburgh so anyone with a non compliant vehicle will have to change.

My df in her mid 80s bought an EV 3 years ago under a Scottish Government interest free loan scheme. She loves her 2nd hand car and gives lifts freely. She charges it at home every night and only does shortish journeys.
She has inspired at least 3 of her friends to change.

My 12 yr old small petrol Toyota keeps on going. I use public transport most of the time so use the car seldom.
Our buses are gradually going electric.
Like the OP I am concerned about the batteries and all that but love the cleaner air in cities
My DD has an electric bike which she loves. DS1 leases a hybrid.
Life is so full of dilemmas.

That wasn't aimed at you TerriBull , unintentionally added your quote. Apologies.

TerriBull

Yes I agree Mamie that seems a good deal. Maybe where France leads others will follow. There is too much complacency as to the affordability of green iniatives, cars, heat pumps. As usual an out of touch elite who appear to think the already struggling public can magic up a money tree when the time comes to replace.

It's all very well France leading in grants for EVs as France generates the vast majority of its electricity around 70%+ through nuclear so can service a huge EV ownership. The UK generates approx 13% from nuclear and is getting ever more dependent on renewables - for which the UK neither has the infrastructure nor future potential electric generation to service large EV ownership.Even when we get more cable lines laid to import solar power from the likes of Africa etc - even when we cover Scotland in imported massive wind turbines and huge battery storage facilities - it remains a gamble as to whether the wind and sun will provide enough energy for our needs. Meanwhile the cost of renewables will rise and rise to pay for the upgrades (wind turbines have a 20-25 year life) and the profits these (non British) companies demand.

One of the biggest take ups for EV in the UK is by company car fleets. DH said the company he worked for is considering investing in EV.
The company used to sell on the 3-4 year old cars when they replaced them with new ones.
His last car had 138,000 miles on the clock. What impact would that have on the battery life of an EV. The replacement cost is so much higher.

Mamie which is exactly my point and the solution is much more complex than simply moving from fossil fuel to EV. The wider context and impact needs to be considered and, so far, from what I've read there is not a lot of joined up thinking.

stewaris

Mamie I think there needs to be an impact study on the extraction of natural resources, whatever they may be, and a decision made on the best way forward. The rain forests across the world have been severely cut back to allow for non sustainable palm oil plantations and the loss of these forests will increase with the need for lithium for batteries. The planet needs to be looked at holistically. Banning the extraction of fossil fuels will not magically eradicate the problems we currently have. Instead we will end up making one fix at the expense of another future problem. Whether we like it or not we need the rain forests across the world to help capture the atmospheric pollutants. If we destroy the rain forests they will take a very long time to regenerate and reach the maturity of what we are cutting down.

Palm oil plantations are no different to growing Maize for Bio Gas, Rapeseed for Biodiesel or Wheat for Ethanol, it’s all using land that could be used for environmental gain.

We really are no better than the countries we criticize.

Mamie I think there needs to be an impact study on the extraction of natural resources, whatever they may be, and a decision made on the best way forward. The rain forests across the world have been severely cut back to allow for non sustainable palm oil plantations and the loss of these forests will increase with the need for lithium for batteries. The planet needs to be looked at holistically. Banning the extraction of fossil fuels will not magically eradicate the problems we currently have. Instead we will end up making one fix at the expense of another future problem. Whether we like it or not we need the rain forests across the world to help capture the atmospheric pollutants. If we destroy the rain forests they will take a very long time to regenerate and reach the maturity of what we are cutting down.

We always seem to be told one thing, then little by little the extra truth comes out. What can you do but accept you are trying your best and not deliberately trying to make matters worse. We bought a diesel because we believed the early facts that were given out. Now very cross but drive less as we have time to use public transport but don’t get me started down that route, 30 minutes waiting in the freezing cold last night then missed my connection and not possible to travel on another train so had to purchase another ticket and yes I did allow plenty of time for transfers. It was the earlier train being held up that caused the extra delay. As I said don’t get me started on public transport!

TerriBull

Yes I agree Mamie that seems a good deal. Maybe where France leads others will follow. There is too much complacency as to the affordability of green iniatives, cars, heat pumps. As usual an out of touch elite who appear to think the already struggling public can magic up a money tree when the time comes to replace.

It also helps the French car industry, of course. There are a lot of intiatives here to support charging as well. We had a grant towards our car and towards the home charger. All big new charging stations have to have shelter with solar panels on top. When my daughter came they had no problem finding superfast chargers en route. There is still work to do on destination chargers, but the road network is excellent.

EVs are too expensive and I don't have a private drive so can't plug one in. My petrol Volvo is going fine and only has 80,000 miles on the clock. A friend ran his up to 200,000 and he met someone at a filling station whose Volvo was pushing 300,000.

Yes I agree Mamie that seems a good deal. Maybe where France leads others will follow. There is too much complacency as to the affordability of green iniatives, cars, heat pumps. As usual an out of touch elite who appear to think the already struggling public can magic up a money tree when the time comes to replace.

Despite the gloom and doom about battery life experience is showing that it is unjustified, many cars are 7 yrs old with 100,000 miles with very little loss in capacity. All batteries including Tesla are removable and can be repaired if individual cells fail, but the failure rate is very low.

EVs are currently more expensive the equivalent petrol is about £10k less, £5k less if it’s a hybrid but hybrids are only about 10% more efficient than petrol. I have a Yaris hybrid it just goes, no worries about breakdowns in 2 yrs, other brands may have reliability issues but Toyota is rock solid they have been making hybrids for 15yrs.

TerriBull

I think the bottom line for most people would be the cost, it would make me wonder how small a well heeled demographic one mixes with to not factor that in. It's not just here but across Europe many are finding green iniatives are simply unable affordable. My neighbour has a top of the range Mercedes (EV) he told us right from the start this is a company car, I couldn't afford to buy it and when they go up north to visit one of their children at university it's a onerous mission due to charging. The house we bought has an electric charging point on our drive, previous owner, again from what I gather had an ev company car.

I realise that we are lucky in France, but did you see my information about people being able to receive an 8000€ grant and a leasing cost of 95€ a month? Surely this is what all countries should be doing.

sazz1

I changed my car last year and after much searching decided an electric car is not for me. The cost was not a deciding factor as I can easily afford one but the fact that several have caught fire when charging or just parked up. Also that these fires are very ferocious and extremely difficult to extinguish. Add that to the fact that one car couldn't be stopped for several miles when it malfunctioned and although going slowly could have easily crashed into another vehicle when going straight through red lights. Also some don't make any noise so pose a danger to pedestrians. Lack of charging points and the rising price of electricity was also a factor.
I chose another second hand Kia as my last car made 12 years old with only £1,500 spent on repairs in all those years (not counting tyres, and servicing) It's reliable, warm and comfortable and run on petrol so I can re-fuel at many places. Yes it could catch fire but hopefully won't burn the house down when parked on a driveway like another electric car I've read about in the press.
I'm convinced these electric cars are unsafe atm and need to be re-assessed and updated a lot before I will consider getting one.

Sazz1: have you any evidence that evs catch fire when they are charging or parked? I have heard of electric scooters catching fire when charging but never cars. It's false claims like these that make people worry. Please don't make scaremongering claims.
Also, should have mentioned that we charge ours mainly at home using solar energy. It's free from our solar panels.

I think we should try to do our best within our individual financial restraints.

I think the bottom line for most people would be the cost, it would make me wonder how small a well heeled demographic one mixes with to not factor that in. It's not just here but across Europe many are finding green iniatives are simply unable affordable. My neighbour has a top of the range Mercedes (EV) he told us right from the start this is a company car, I couldn't afford to buy it and when they go up north to visit one of their children at university it's a onerous mission due to charging. The house we bought has an electric charging point on our drive, previous owner, again from what I gather had an ev company car.

So do you disagree with the conclusion of the Guardian article stewaris? Or are you saying that it is better to carry on polluting the planet with the mineral consumption and emissions of ICE vehicles until a perfect solution is found?

I did read the Guardian data from the front page Mamie. However, if you google the satellite pictures from space the destruction you can see the lithium settling ponds. They also mention the mining that is/will be going on in Africa. That includes the destruction of rain forest. There has been much written about the destruction of the Amazon rain forest and the loss of it as a carbon sink. The same is likely to happen in Africa. Short term gain isn't always the best way forward although we do have to be less wasteful in all aspects of our lives.

See below from rainforest rescue.

www.rainforest-rescue.org/petitions/1182/electric-vehicles-are-stealth-rainforest-killers

Whatever the opposition half truths say governments around the world are mandating EVs within a few years, whatever vehicle we use we produce pollution, EVs produce less and as we generate more renewable power, a lot less.

EVs break down so do petrol and diesel cars, they run out of fuel and components fail, they sometimes catch fire too but the rate of EVs catching fire is only 10% of others. The Luton fire was immediately blamed on an EV by the media, it was in reality a diesel Range Rover.

So get used to EVs they are here to stay, as for Hydrogen that’s decades away and probably only for heavy transport and shipping. We have the technology but not the Green Hydrogen fuel, generating enough green electricity to provide hydrogen fuel is a long way off.

The verdict:
The data we have leaves little doubt that resource extraction will be significantly lower for electric cars compared with their petrol or diesel equivalents as recycling increases.