Labour's latest policy announcement

Germanshepherdsmum

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Michelle Mome….

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Germanshepherdsmum

We don’t yet know that Maizie. Until I know more I keep an open mind. It was an unprecedented situation and PPE was required, in vast quantities, from wherever it could be procured, without delay. The luxury of following normal tender procedures wasn’t there. I will await the outcome of the NCI investigation. Corruption is the offering of an undue reward to a person in public office in order to influence their behaviour in office and incline them to act contrary to the known rules of honesty and integrity (Russell on Crime). A word which, like fraud, tends to be bandied about.

It wasn't there, because despite repeated warnings of an impending pandemic, and warnings that the UK was not in any way, shape or form prepared, and with practically no stocks at all...

Total incompetence added to fraud with mates.

FullFact.
fullfact.org/health/covid-ppe-fraud-rishi-sunak/

We don’t yet know that Maizie. Until I know more I keep an open mind. It was an unprecedented situation and PPE was required, in vast quantities, from wherever it could be procured, without delay. The luxury of following normal tender procedures wasn’t there. I will await the outcome of the NCI investigation. Corruption is the offering of an undue reward to a person in public office in order to influence their behaviour in office and incline them to act contrary to the known rules of honesty and integrity (Russell on Crime). A word which, like fraud, tends to be bandied about.

Germanshepherdsmum

We don’t know that Mone committed fraud. People speak very loosely about fraud. It is a crime requiring intent to defraud. We don’t yet know specifically what happened with any PPE contracts which failed to result in the required goods being delivered. The National Crime Agency is investigating the payment received by Mone.

If it wasn't fraud, GSM, it was corruption...

Perhaps Labour intends to implement the recommendations of the Sept 2023 Public Accounts Committee Report 'Tackling Fraud and Corruption against Government'

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmpubacc/1230/report.html

While some posters are eager to latch on to benefit fraud the figures given in the report demonstrate that benefits are not the primary source of fraud.

2. There are large gaps in government’s understanding of the extent and location of fraud and corruption risks. Most departments are exposed to several types of fraud and corruption risk in their income and spending, but few produce regular, reliable, and comprehensive estimates of the level of fraud and corruption of their risky areas. Government expects the number of fraud measurement experts across public bodies to increase from 99 to around 180. But the current system of fraud measurement does not tell us, beyond the well-known problems in tax and benefits, where the problems are or which public bodies are most affected. Where government does attempt to measure fraud, it often includes more innocent errors because it finds it difficult to establish the intent behind the misinformation provided. Conflating error with fraud can give the impression that government is underestimating and obscuring where the real fraud problems are. PSFA estimates that, for the two thirds of government expenditure where it does not have specific estimates, the level of fraud and error is somewhere between 0.5% and 5% of expenditure. This implies that in addition to the £10 billion of tax fraud and £6.4 billion of benefit fraud last year (2022–23), government lost somewhere between £2.5 billion to £28.5 billion from fraud and error, but it does not know exactly where or how.

I'm not sure if the PAC included this in their estimation of fraud and error loss in two thirds of government expenditure (see extract above)

www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/government-writes-off-ps43bn-in-stolen-covid-payments

We don’t know that Mone committed fraud. People speak very loosely about fraud. It is a crime requiring intent to defraud. We don’t yet know specifically what happened with any PPE contracts which failed to result in the required goods being delivered. The National Crime Agency is investigating the payment received by Mone.

DaisyAnneReturns

Can you flag up the legislation? Germanshepherdsmum

Don't forget we are all posting our own views. I haven't seen anyone quoting Starmer directly. So your accusation of "playing to the gallery" seems misdirected. It does seem a bit rich for a supporter of Johnson et al to accuse anyone of such a thing.

It would be useful to know which law you think is being duplicated.

The issue is that all of us have seen massive fraud committed one way or another by so many very rich and influential people, who have NOT been prosecuted and seem to have got away with it. And we are not talking here about benefit fraud- which is minor in comparison.

Where I agree with GSM, is so many people say that benefit fraud is not important or even relevant. Fraud is fraud- and a fair system should see it stamped out at all levels. However, when you see people like Mone and co - then I can understand that very rich people abusing the system, with the help of mates in Government- then this type of fraud is very much top of the pile.

Fraud Act 2006 DAR. And btw I was never a supporter of Johnson.

MayBee70
It’s quite clear Fancythat doesn’t know what she wants. She obviously gets a Drs appointment when she wants on. There are police on the beat where she lives. Her grandchildren’s schools have enough teachers and no asbestos. No potholes where she lives. I think you get my drift 😉

MerylStreep

Fancythat
It appears you withdrew from politics 13 + years ago as you obviously missed the cuts to all public services.
Other than that I must assume you and yours have not been affected. Lucky you.

If fancythat wants a government further to the right than the current government I'd like her to elucidate on what she actually wants for this country but she isn't prepared to comment.

Can you flag up the legislation? Germanshepherdsmum

Don't forget we are all posting our own views. I haven't seen anyone quoting Starmer directly. So your accusation of "playing to the gallery" seems misdirected. It does seem a bit rich for a supporter of Johnson et al to accuse anyone of such a thing.

It would be useful to know which law you think is being duplicated.

I am not acquainted with Sunak and can say with certainty that he is not my friend.

I don’t take kindly to Starmer trying to fool the public that further legislation is needed and that he will get it done. PPE deals are already under investigation, but as I have already said fraud is a criminal offence requiring intent to defraud - as opposed to a failure to deliver the precise goods contracted to be purchased.

Fancythat
It appears you withdrew from politics 13 + years ago as you obviously missed the cuts to all public services.
Other than that I must assume you and yours have not been affected. Lucky you.

Highly misleading attempt to win votes, like your friend Sunak's claims about clearing up the backlog of asylum cases? Surely as a lawyer, you can see through that pack of lies?

Nobody can blame Labour for being reticent about manifesto items, remember when they were pressing for additional taxation of the energy companies during the early days of the energy crisis? All that refusal from the Tories under Johnson, then Sunak, as chancellor announced a 'Excess Profit Levy' which, of course, wasn't the same thing. Yeah, right.

The fact is that, existing laws or not, if this means that a Labour administration will be going after some of the PPE fast tracked deals, that is good enough for me.

He might well change his mind, or water it down

Fraud is fraud - it can be committed in many different ways but you don’t need a separate Act of Parliament for each. There is already a Fraud Act and one of the offences it covers is fraud by abuse of position. Starmer is relying on the public not knowing that but he will know it all too well. Highly misleading attempt to win votes.

While there are laws that already make defrauding the public purse a crime there is no harm in making a blanket law to catch all methods of fraud as some types may have been missed and new methods could become possible in the future.

All politicians play to the gallery - nothing unique to Keir Starmer. Just watch Prime Minister's Questions to see that every week!

It is already a crime. As a former DPP he is well aware of that. I really think he is simply playing to the gallery.

Germanshepherdsmum is right, some areas of fraud are already covered. I know that they are having to trawl the current laws to bring these people to justice.

It will be interesting to see how this is rolled out nearer the time. Perhaps it will be something along the lines of 'defrauding the public purse while in public office' as that seems the most egregious form of fraud.

Ok as a policy.

Trouble is, in my heart of hearts, I dont think there is much he can say to make me vote Lab our.
I am too long in the tooth.

Too long in the tooth to believe anyone's manifesto[think a poster on GN said that is what they go on when deciding who to vote for].
For me, manifestos change all the time, and can be disregarded.

Too long in the tooth to think Lab our will change it's spending ways of the past.

Too long in the tooth to think it may not bow down to whatever group when the going gets tough[though I think Tories are a little more likely to do that nowadays too].

I think Uk politics has made a wholesale shift to the left in the last 15 years or whatever.
Even Tor ies are too left for me nowadays, let alone Labour.

And no, I will not provide evidence, links or much dissection. Take it or leave it. I do not much care.

I find myself withdrawing from much if politics, even in real life.
Have got very jaded.
And I have more things that are taking up more and more of my time.

To see the actual detail a draft Bill would have to be produced.

GSM, I’m not sure why you doubt that the necessary detail will be present in Labour’s manifesto. However I am sure that, as a lawyer, you will not make un-evidenced assumptions and will wait until a Manifesto is released before you decide whether there is sufficient detail, or not. Interestingly, I was just listening to a Politics Professor on the radio who said that opposition parties never give detail of their proposed policies ahead of the Manifesto because the party in government is likely to ‘steal them’ (his words).

Fraud is fraud. It requires intent.