Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

Rosie51

Glorianny The teaching time finishes at 3.15pm, but then there are after school clubs, a compulsory homework club for some pupils Year9-11 and pupils on Referral for any matter are kept until 5.30pm which can be extended to 6pm
So pupils may be in the school up until 6pm

None of which is what you originally posted. You said the normal school day ended at 5pm which you said would cause a problem for Jewish children in winter. Now you're bringing in detentions etc. Nowhere is there a standardised 5pm finish mentioned.

Hooray! Exactly what I said, 2 days ago. School finishes at 3.15 pm.
Fact, not opinion!

Thank you for answering again.
Actually, we didn’t always eat fish on Friday. My catholic relatives also ate cheese pie, cauliflower cheese etc.
So what’s the point?
What about all the omnivore pupils being obliged to eat a vegetarian menu to cater for other religions? Apparently, you only object to echoes of Catholic traditions.

Glorianny

I freely acknowledge that I may have the time wrong, although I do believe it was in one of KB's numerous statements about the school. I just can't be bothered to look for it.
What is obvious is that the day is generally longer than the time teaching ends.

No school locks up at the end of last lesson. Sports practices, matches, detentions, revision classes, art club etc, never mind teachers in meetings.
Most schools are physically unlocked for staff (who carry ID electronic cards) 7am to 6pm. But I think most have a door system where pupils can get out (eg from an after school club) but can't get back in again after the person on Reception has left (8.30 - 4pm?)

If I had to bet my house on it I would say she will lose on not following the correct procedures.
I would also say if we dont learn somethings from that school we will be the poorer for it.

Glorianny Oh and you didn't answer my question if it would be acceptable to serve fish on a different day of the week?

Fish on a Friday has become a tradition, I know quite a few people who have a fish and chip takeaway as a treat at the end of the week. Not one of them associates it with observing a Christian or even subset Catholic tradition. If questioned they'd reply that it's a British tradition. KB promotes Britishness. Times and practices move on. What was isn't necessarily what is now.

Rosie51

Glorianny It is definitely a Christian tradition which would seem to have no place in a secular school which avoids the dietary requirements of other religions. Would you be OK if they served a fish option on any other day of the week? I don't think many people associate having fish on Friday as observing a Christian tradition, especially those with no religious background in Christianity. You do realise the school went to a vegetarian diet largely to remove the divisions at dining because Muslims do not eat pork, Hindus do not eat beef? Yes she won't allow Hindu children to eat separately on plates kept separate so they can guarantee they haven't been touched by an egg. The Hindu parents and children accept this because they want to attend the school.

But the policy denotes it as traditional.
WHAT DO CHILDREN EAT?
At Michaela, we serve a variety of vegetarian dishes with traditional fish on Fridays. In addition to lunch, pupils have snack food at morning break. Pupils with allergies are catered for.
Do you think KB doesn't realise it is a Christian tradition?

I was talking about the thread growstuff, a prayer space has been offered numerous times on here as a solution.

Glorianny It is definitely a Christian tradition which would seem to have no place in a secular school which avoids the dietary requirements of other religions. Would you be OK if they served a fish option on any other day of the week? I don't think many people associate having fish on Friday as observing a Christian tradition, especially those with no religious background in Christianity. You do realise the school went to a vegetarian diet largely to remove the divisions at dining because Muslims do not eat pork, Hindus do not eat beef? Yes she won't allow Hindu children to eat separately on plates kept separate so they can guarantee they haven't been touched by an egg. The Hindu parents and children accept this because they want to attend the school.

Mollygo

Fish on a Friday is an echo of Christianity.
In the same way as vegetarian menu must be an echo of non-eaters of different meats linked to religion.

What’s the point being made here?

Is there some objection to eating fish on a Friday? Is fish is the only choice on the menu on a Friday?

Interesting comment Rosie51 and tickingbird

tickingbird
Rosie51
None of which is what you originally posted. You said the normal school day ended at 5pm which you said would cause a problem for Jewish children in winter. Now you're bringing in detentions etc. Nowhere is there a standardised 5pm finish mentioned.

*It took longer than usual for those particular goalposts to be moved.*

Maybe you were not brought up with any Catholic relatives. Fish was always eaten on a Friday by Catholics because Friday is the day Christ was crucified and the eating of flesh was banned from the 1st century up until 1966 when the rule was changed to only Fridays in Lent.
It is definitely a Christian tradition which would seem to have no place in a secular school which avoids the dietary requirements of other religions.

I freely acknowledge that I may have the time wrong, although I do believe it was in one of KB's numerous statements about the school. I just can't be bothered to look for it.
What is obvious is that the day is generally longer than the time teaching ends.

The question of a prayer space is irrelevant to this court case and is a deflection from the issues involved. It seems Birbalsingh would prefer to talk about a prayer space rather than the actual allegation.

Yes I know that (although I think the whole thing was even more complex than that) it's just prayer space has been mentioned as a solution. She has no requirement to do that and I cant imagine after listening to her on unherd that she will precede that way. I actually thought she was very clear on the ethos of the school in the interview but vague on the legal case which worried me.

Galaxy

There is no requirement to provide a prayer space so she wont lose on that. She may lose if she hasnt followed procedures in terms of banning prayer.

Despite what the media is claiming, the school is not being challenged for the lack of a prayer space. The issue of faith room was suggested by the pupils concerned after the school objected to praying during Ramadan.

The school is being challenged for banning praying in the pupil's own time (ie during lunch break). As I'm sure posters know, Islam requires prays five times a day, one of those times being just after lunch/early afternoon.

Apparently a teacher told two pupils to stop (before the ban), but they ignored the teacher. This was seen as disrespectful and the pupils were punished (as per the school rules). The pupils told their parents, who sought an interview with Birbalsingh. Apparently, this was ignored and it all blew up from there.

The governors confirmed that the ban on praying was to be permanent. Allegedly, they were given false information, including the nature of "tawba", which is asking Allah for repentance for not praying. They also did not consult or take witness statements from anybody else except Birbalsingh.

The judge will have all the details, including more than has been reported in the media and will, I'm sure, want to check the truth and timeline of what happened.

Fish on a Friday is an echo of Christianity.
In the same way as vegetarian menu must be an echo of non-eaters of different meats linked to religion.

What’s the point being made here?

Is there some objection to eating fish on a Friday? Is fish is the only choice on the menu on a Friday?

Interesting comment Rosie51 and tickingbird

tickingbird
Rosie51
None of which is what you originally posted. You said the normal school day ended at 5pm which you said would cause a problem for Jewish children in winter. Now you're bringing in detentions etc. Nowhere is there a standardised 5pm finish mentioned.

It took longer than usual for those particular goalposts to be moved.

Rosie51
None of which is what you originally posted. You said the normal school day ended at 5pm which you said would cause a problem for Jewish children in winter. Now you're bringing in detentions etc. Nowhere is there a standardised 5pm finish mentioned.

It took longer than usual for those particular goalposts to be moved.

Glorianny The teaching time finishes at 3.15pm, but then there are after school clubs, a compulsory homework club for some pupils Year9-11 and pupils on Referral for any matter are kept until 5.30pm which can be extended to 6pm
So pupils may be in the school up until 6pm

None of which is what you originally posted. You said the normal school day ended at 5pm which you said would cause a problem for Jewish children in winter. Now you're bringing in detentions etc. Nowhere is there a standardised 5pm finish mentioned.

There is no requirement to provide a prayer space so she wont lose on that. She may lose if she hasnt followed procedures in terms of banning prayer.

Rosie51

growstuff

tickingbird

Glad to read Glorianny has gone back to real sources rather than relying on second-hand evidence. What does the length of the school day have to do with praying?

What sources ? What second hand evidence?

I heard it from the horse’s mouth when I listened to KB’s interview. Far more accurate than any link.

Apart from Glorianny no one else has found any evidence of the school closing at 5pm. The school near me closes at 2.30 on Fridays.

What are these real sources you mention? Why is everyone else’s information second hand?

Errr! You mean that the school's published policies aren't genuine?

I'm sure Glorianny will be along soon with the link to her "real sources" that show a 5pm finish............

.........meanwhile the link that both Chardy and I have used is from the school website.

The teaching time finishes at 3.15pm, but then there are after school clubs, a compulsory homework club for some pupils Year9-11 and pupils on Referral for any matter are kept until 5.30pm which can be extended to 6pm
So pupils may be in the school up until 6pm
michaela.education/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Behaviour-Policy-September-2023.pdf

What strikes me about this is that teenagers are naturally inclined to rebel against things. There were probably far more children attracted to prayer because it was seen as unacceptable. Had they been given space a number would have dropped out once it was acceptable, and more when they realised it was going to be every day.

Girls in teenage years often go through a religious phase. Usually it passes. RC girls used to want to be nuns.

I still don't understand how fish on a Friday can be anything but an echo of Christianity.

Chocolatelovinggran

Spot on Dickens- if being a supporter of
social justice and respect for all is now seen as something to be sneered at, I despair.

Who's sneering? I'm certainly not.

This is a judicial review. The judge can't say whether the ban was right. All he/she can decide is whether correct procedures were followed, ie. was the Human Rights Act taken into account and were the governors (who were responsible for the ban) given the correct information? Were the school's own policies followed? Were parents informed and involved?

Even if Birbalsingh loses the case, all she has to do is follow the correct procedures and repeat the ban.

Spot on Dickens- if being a supporter of
social justice and respect for all is now seen as something to be sneered at, I despair.

Perhaps offering a restricted range of subjects, which means pupils have more lessons in the subjects which count towards the government's league table helps.

Joseann

Hmm. I'm in two minds.
I don't think weird is necessarily a bad thing if it just means unusual, different crazy ! Is there any harm in her saying what she thinks, (within reason), if she truly believes it? KB is certainly confident enough to make big claims. She shows by her actions that she supports what she believes in, and it seems to work for her school.
I would be interested to meet her, (but I wouldn't like to be either a teacher, a pupil, or a parent at her school).

Different is the word, I think.

It's a popular school and parents must be keen for their children to go there as it is over-subscribed.
Perhaps being strict means the school achieves such good results?

Galaxy

I read that wrongly and thought you were saying that your Tesco driver unpacked your bags, I was raging for about five seconds

😁😁

I read that wrongly and thought you were saying that your Tesco driver unpacked your bags, I was raging for about five seconds