Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.

Good post Rosie51

Taking the request to its ultimate conclusion (can’t remember where I got that useful phrase from), all the groups you mention and also the my beliefs say that going out in the rain and cold/ sun and heat is bad for me groups, would be entitled to a room.

They will have seen that bullying and going to court and the press would evidently be the way to get their demands met.

Shame that girl/group/parents have made it appear that that’s the way to do it.

Unless of course, it should only be religious groups who are allowed to use those tactics to ensure their demands are met.

Difficult decision for some.
Do you always support bullying to get demands met or only if it’s a religious group.

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

That's why I said that, if the school was made to provide such a room, it would need to be supervised but was asked why!

If some pupils were coercing and bullying other pupils and even teachers, then it stands to reason that the room would need to be supervised by a member of staff.

Very biased

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

Rosie51

Glorianny A school does not have to state in its policies what is permitted but it very much does need to state what is not permitted.

Really? Every little thing that is not permitted needs to be listed in its policy document? You'd spend hours thinking of every last thing you weren't going to permit. "Graffiti no matter how artistic or socially challenging is not permitted" just in case one of the present or future pupils should be a budding Banksy. Taken to its logical conclusion as you like to do with examples, wouldn't this result in pages of "not permitted" actions?

You've repeated again your 30 chess players or game players or rosary sayers and the suggestion they'd be found a room. You've obviously not considered the 30 book club members, the 30 jigsaw addicts, the 30 knitting enthusiasts and all the other groups of 30 like-minded individuals. A school which operates in a repurposed office block has dozens of spare rooms to allocate for special interest groups? I thought it was you who earlier in the thread said Catholics could (unfairly was implied) quietly say their rosary with it in their pocket in the playground, now you think they'd be allocated a room.

The school's behaviour policy covers 9 pages, listing in detail what is and is not permitted. A single line in the section on what is not permitted is all that would be needed. "No religious activity of any kind is permitted on school premises."
michaela.education/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Behaviour-Policy-September-2023.pdf

The school fits in many clubs. One room at lunch time isn't much.

Joseann

^They sing religious songs^
Well I know for a fact that Muslims sing, "God save the King", in the Mosque in Regent's Park, London.

So how is that relevant? I assume the mosque is not claiming to be secular?

growstuff

Rosie51

Glorianny A school does not have to state in its policies what is permitted but it very much does need to state what is not permitted.

Really? Every little thing that is not permitted needs to be listed in its policy document? You'd spend hours thinking of every last thing you weren't going to permit. "Graffiti no matter how artistic or socially challenging is not permitted" just in case one of the present or future pupils should be a budding Banksy. Taken to its logical conclusion as you like to do with examples, wouldn't this result in pages of "not permitted" actions?

You've repeated again your 30 chess players or game players or rosary sayers and the suggestion they'd be found a room. You've obviously not considered the 30 book club members, the 30 jigsaw addicts, the 30 knitting enthusiasts and all the other groups of 30 like-minded individuals. A school which operates in a repurposed office block has dozens of spare rooms to allocate for special interest groups? I thought it was you who earlier in the thread said Catholics could (unfairly was implied) quietly say their rosary with it in their pocket in the playground, now you think they'd be allocated a room.

I would say praying is more than a "little thing" to people who believe in any kind of religion.

Why have you misrepresented my words? Glorianny said schools don't have to state what is permitted only that which is not permitted. I didn't say praying was "a little thing", you have decided to lump it in with that category. Having to state everything that isn't permitted, taken to the end degree, you will have a long list of "little things" as well as "major things".
If you go looking for offence, it's remarkably easy to manufacture it.
You might care to reprimand Glorianny as she is the one who keeps saying a room would be found for any other group, despite what the court case is about, or is she immune from your criticism even when she gets basics such as lessons finishing time wrong by an hour and three-quarters?

Joseann

No, I mean IF she had chosen Michaela.

She's far to independent-minded and respects a good education too much ever to have chosen Michaela. I doubt if a faith room would have had anything to do with her decision.

No, I mean IF she had chosen Michaela.

Joseann

And so, growstuff, your SiL's discerning Muslim mother would have used her good judgment to realise that the school she had chosen for her son was not going to make an exception for Muslims to have a prayer room.
The more I think about it here, the more it seems to be wanting your cake and eat it. (Or wanting to destroy what is working for the vast majority).

How exactly do a few people praying destroy what is working for everybody else? If pupils are taught tolerance and respect, they would just walk past the pupils praying and leave them to it.

Joseann

And so, growstuff, your SiL's discerning Muslim mother would have used her good judgment to realise that the school she had chosen for her son was not going to make an exception for Muslims to have a prayer room.
The more I think about it here, the more it seems to be wanting your cake and eat it. (Or wanting to destroy what is working for the vast majority).

Of course she did! She paid for him to go to one of the best independent schools in the country. As far as I know, there was no ban on praying in the playground. The school has an Islamic society and hosts an annual dinner for old boys. It also has Muslim assemblies.

And so, growstuff, your SiL's discerning Muslim mother would have used her good judgment to realise that the school she had chosen for her son was not going to make an exception for Muslims to have a prayer room.
The more I think about it here, the more it seems to be wanting your cake and eat it. (Or wanting to destroy what is working for the vast majority).

Any school has classrooms, most of which are empty during lunch times. In any case, the issue in the court case is about the ban on praying, not the provision of a place to pray - there's a difference.

Rosie51

Glorianny A school does not have to state in its policies what is permitted but it very much does need to state what is not permitted.

Really? Every little thing that is not permitted needs to be listed in its policy document? You'd spend hours thinking of every last thing you weren't going to permit. "Graffiti no matter how artistic or socially challenging is not permitted" just in case one of the present or future pupils should be a budding Banksy. Taken to its logical conclusion as you like to do with examples, wouldn't this result in pages of "not permitted" actions?

You've repeated again your 30 chess players or game players or rosary sayers and the suggestion they'd be found a room. You've obviously not considered the 30 book club members, the 30 jigsaw addicts, the 30 knitting enthusiasts and all the other groups of 30 like-minded individuals. A school which operates in a repurposed office block has dozens of spare rooms to allocate for special interest groups? I thought it was you who earlier in the thread said Catholics could (unfairly was implied) quietly say their rosary with it in their pocket in the playground, now you think they'd be allocated a room.

I would say praying is more than a "little thing" to people who believe in any kind of religion.

DrWatson

For UrmstonGran -- Islam is a non-inclusive faith, it essentially teaches that females are 3rd-class citizens. If you go to a Church (Catholic or Anglican -- not that I'm religious) you'll find men and women together. In a Mosque, females are secluded in a back room, and of course not too many female Imams (!).

Add on Islam's delightful customs of arranged marriage, FGM, and 'honour' killing, plus their general lack of tolerance towards other faiths, and there's a strong case to keep Islam out of schools (though as folk have said, pupils can learn about the range of world faiths available).

DrWatson My feminist daughter is married to a man who was brought up a Muslim. Her marriage certainly wasn't arranged. I've met my daughter's highly successful businesswoman Muslim mother-in-law and many of the other females in the family. None of them is "oppressed". The best man at my daughter's and son-in-law's wedding is Jewish. (incidentally, how much do you know about the orthodox Jewish faith?) Why should any of them be banned from praying for a few minutes during the school day?

For UrmstonGran -- Islam is a non-inclusive faith, it essentially teaches that females are 3rd-class citizens. If you go to a Church (Catholic or Anglican -- not that I'm religious) you'll find men and women together. In a Mosque, females are secluded in a back room, and of course not too many female Imams (!).

Add on Islam's delightful customs of arranged marriage, FGM, and 'honour' killing, plus their general lack of tolerance towards other faiths, and there's a strong case to keep Islam out of schools (though as folk have said, pupils can learn about the range of world faiths available).

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Pantglas2

Dunno, and I could care less!

Those that care more, devotees to a particular religion, would have had the nous to ask…surely?

As Glorianny knows full well, a small group of girls were praying in the playground in view of the general public.

Passersby saw this which sparked uproar among members of the public and led to the school receiving abuse and harassment.
There was a concerted campaign on social media including a petition and “death threats”, including a bomb hoax, which led to the outright ban.

Which could all have been avoided if the children had been given somewhere to pray.

30 children were praying in the playground. If they had been playing chess, or a game, or saying the rosary would they have been forced to do so in the playground? Or would space have been found for them?

The death threats were against the law. The law should have been used to deal with them. The school should have consulted and mediated with the children and their families not made a knee jerk decision to ban anything.

Or gone to an Islamic school instead of choosing one which made its non-religious stance absolutely plain?

I doesn't have a non-religious stance,
They sing religious songs
They observe a Christian food tradition

The children chose to pray.
Why do you insist Islamic children are not permitted to attend a school. isn't that exactly how division and discrimination is encouraged?

Choice. We still have choice in this country - religious schools, schools which are non-secular despite the Education Act (and even Ofsted largely ignores the instruction to have a largely Christian assembly), state, private etc.

Why do you insist Islamic children are not permitted to attend a school.
I didn't.

Honestly, do you always have to keep twisting what other posters say just because you're running out of arguments?

Glorianny A school does not have to state in its policies what is permitted but it very much does need to state what is not permitted.

Really? Every little thing that is not permitted needs to be listed in its policy document? You'd spend hours thinking of every last thing you weren't going to permit. "Graffiti no matter how artistic or socially challenging is not permitted" just in case one of the present or future pupils should be a budding Banksy. Taken to its logical conclusion as you like to do with examples, wouldn't this result in pages of "not permitted" actions?

You've repeated again your 30 chess players or game players or rosary sayers and the suggestion they'd be found a room. You've obviously not considered the 30 book club members, the 30 jigsaw addicts, the 30 knitting enthusiasts and all the other groups of 30 like-minded individuals. A school which operates in a repurposed office block has dozens of spare rooms to allocate for special interest groups? I thought it was you who earlier in the thread said Catholics could (unfairly was implied) quietly say their rosary with it in their pocket in the playground, now you think they'd be allocated a room.

Joseann

^They sing religious songs^
Well I know for a fact that Muslims sing, "God save the King", in the Mosque in Regent's Park, London.

🤔
Now, this is a difficult one!

Are atheists automatically republicans?
Or the converse?

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Pantglas2

Dunno, and I could care less!

Those that care more, devotees to a particular religion, would have had the nous to ask…surely?

As Glorianny knows full well, a small group of girls were praying in the playground in view of the general public.

Passersby saw this which sparked uproar among members of the public and led to the school receiving abuse and harassment.
There was a concerted campaign on social media including a petition and “death threats”, including a bomb hoax, which led to the outright ban.

Which could all have been avoided if the children had been given somewhere to pray.

30 children were praying in the playground. If they had been playing chess, or a game, or saying the rosary would they have been forced to do so in the playground? Or would space have been found for them?

The death threats were against the law. The law should have been used to deal with them. The school should have consulted and mediated with the children and their families not made a knee jerk decision to ban anything.

Or gone to an Islamic school instead of choosing one which made its non-religious stance absolutely plain?

The school didn't have a non-religious stance until this all kicked off.

They sing religious songs
Well I know for a fact that Muslims sing, "God save the King", in the Mosque in Regent's Park, London.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Pantglas2

Dunno, and I could care less!

Those that care more, devotees to a particular religion, would have had the nous to ask…surely?

As Glorianny knows full well, a small group of girls were praying in the playground in view of the general public.

Passersby saw this which sparked uproar among members of the public and led to the school receiving abuse and harassment.
There was a concerted campaign on social media including a petition and “death threats”, including a bomb hoax, which led to the outright ban.

Which could all have been avoided if the children had been given somewhere to pray.

30 children were praying in the playground. If they had been playing chess, or a game, or saying the rosary would they have been forced to do so in the playground? Or would space have been found for them?

The death threats were against the law. The law should have been used to deal with them. The school should have consulted and mediated with the children and their families not made a knee jerk decision to ban anything.

Or gone to an Islamic school instead of choosing one which made its non-religious stance absolutely plain?

I doesn't have a non-religious stance,
They sing religious songs
They observe a Christian food tradition

The children chose to pray.
Why do you insist Islamic children are not permitted to attend a school. isn't that exactly how division and discrimination is encouraged?