Discussing Electoral Reform From Labour Perspective

Casdon is correct, we are a democracy but some would prefer a different system to elect MP’s.Am not too sure about PR tbh but we have what we have at the moment and insisting the UK isn’t a democracy doesn’t make it true.

Democracy evolves. Democracy doesn't just apply to countries, it can apply to any group. It does not include to education, health etc., they are (or are not) a product of democracy.

Democracy is a system of government by the whole of the eligible population, typically through elected members. The only things that can change in those circumstances are who is eligible to vote and who and how the elected members are chosen.

There is an argument that a healthy democracy requires certain pillars of a civilised existence to be available for all citizens in order to thrive.

Perhaps I should have said 'free access to education for all' MaizieD, my point being that education supports more rational choices by voters but perhaps being in a good state of health carries similar weight.

I'm in favour of PR, too, BTW, as being more equitable.

I'm not sure that free access to health care is a pillar of democracy, Grantanow, but I agree with the rest.

I'd also add, perhaps, it's where people are allowed to freely express dissent and where government can be meaningfully called to account.

Whether the UK is a democracy is not simply a matter of how national governments are elected but of how a wide range of regional and local bodies are elected or appointed and how they exercise their powers, on whether the judiciary is independent and whether access to health care is free to all.

It does look likely that at the next general election we will see the Labour Party get a substantial majority of MPs on the basis of less than 50% of the vote.

If you are part of the majority who do not intend to vote Labour, are you going to be happy with that result?

It just annoys me when people make untrue statements DaisyAnneReturns, as you probably know by now I get as wound up as most people about things I disagree with, but I try hard to post accurately. .

Casdon

varian

In a democracy the government is chosen by a majority of voters.

The UK is not a democracy.

We could argue this for years, in fact I think we already have done. Rather than copy a hundred links, I refer you to the internet to Google ‘is the UK a democracy’
Answer, yes it is. Don’t believe me, or the many learned sources, if you prefer, but it’s all there.

Many thing ar3e argued for years Casdon. Think votes for women, the anti-slavery laws. We don't see them as the wrong way to go - or do you?

It’s not my definition of democracy varian, it’s what academics, historians, worldwide political analysts and the like say. I’m not presuming to impose my view on others.

So Casdon does your definition of democracy involve imposing the wishes of a minority on the majority?,

varian

You may be happy to be ruled by an elective dictatorship which can inflict untold harm on our country without check, for five years, because a minority of the voters voted for them,

I am certainly not.

That is not democracy.

varianI get that you don’t like it, you want to change it and that you’re frustrated because there is no progress towards your preferred model - but you are misleading to say that it is not a democracy. It is.

You may be happy to be ruled by an elective dictatorship which can inflict untold harm on our country without check, for five years, because a minority of the voters voted for them,

I am certainly not.

That is not democracy.

varian

In a democracy the government is chosen by a majority of voters.

The UK is not a democracy.

We could argue this for years, in fact I think we already have done. Rather than copy a hundred links, I refer you to the internet to Google ‘is the UK a democracy’
Answer, yes it is. Don’t believe me, or the many learned sources, if you prefer, but it’s all there.

Ilovecheese

Labour don't want to change it because they can win under it.
A proper democratic system with coalitions and cooperation would be too difficult for either of the two main parties to work with, they can't even agree on priorities and policies within their own parties, never mind having to listen to anyone else.

If you watch to the end Ilovecheese they are talking about how many votes change governments. It really us a very small number. The rest have little or no effect. Most if our votes si pay don't count under FPTP.

The right wing rags will attack Labour, LibDems and all other non-Tory Parties irrespective of their policies.

They are totally focussed on promoting the Tory vote

varian

Thanks DAR

An interesting discussion which goes some way to explaining why the Labour leadership seems to want to avoid the question of electoral reform, in spite of the overwhelming wishes of both LP membership and unions.

Starmer et al, in spite of (or perhaps because of) their strong lead in the polls, appear to have little interest in steering the UK into becoming a democracy,

Very interesting to see the use of Citizen Juries/Assemblies suggested.

Obviously there is not only one type of PR. I was interested to hear the guest suggest that Single Transferable Vote works best where people have more knowledge of those standing, such as council elections, but the list system is best for GEs.

The fact that the list system uses grouped constituencies seems to tie in with Starmer's nod to a greater federalsation and more Combined Authorities, all of which I favour.

It certainly was worth watching.

I think they have to avoid talking about it at the moment. They can't afford it to be the only thing the rags on the right print.

In a democracy the government is chosen by a majority of voters.

The UK is not a democracy.

DaisyAnneReturns

Casdon

We’ve been through this so many times. The UK IS a democracy varian, it’s just not your preferred democratic model.

Perhaps you could tell us which countries use this very antiquated form of democracy Casdon

I’m not saying the UK system is a model for other countries, just that, like it or not, it is a democracy. It’s like Groundhog Day when the same mantra about PR keeps being repeated by the same people on here, because there have been so many previous posts where exactly the same points are made. You know it isn’t a priority for Labour, it isn’t going to happen in the near future when there are so many far more urgent priorities.

Ilovecheese

Labour don't want to change it because they can win under it.
A proper democratic system with coalitions and cooperation would be too difficult for either of the two main parties to work with, they can't even agree on priorities and policies within their own parties, never mind having to listen to anyone else.

Did you listen to the channel or is this yet another non-factual opinion.

Casdon

We’ve been through this so many times. The UK IS a democracy varian, it’s just not your preferred democratic model.

Perhaps you could tell us which countries use this very antiquated form of democracy Casdon

Casdon

We’ve been through this so many times. The UK IS a democracy varian, it’s just not your preferred democratic model.

Sorry, Casdon, but I don't agree. The UK as not been a democracy since at least 2016. I wasn't paying attention before that so can't say how far the rot goes back.

Labour don't want to change it because they can win under it.
A proper democratic system with coalitions and cooperation would be too difficult for either of the two main parties to work with, they can't even agree on priorities and policies within their own parties, never mind having to listen to anyone else.

GrannyGravy13

I think that if the Lib Dem’s were winning under the present system they would not be so vociferous about changing it…

That is unwarranted. I believe in democracy ,

The LibDems do win under FPTP.

For instance in the first election for the new unitary authority of Somerset in 2022 the number of councillors elected was- _
Liberal Democrat 61
Conservative 36
Green 5
Labour 5
Independent 3

The point is that the Liberal Democrats did only get 44% of the vote, and still got a clear majority of councils seats. If the parties had each got the same number of votes under a PR system, the LibDems might have formed an administration in coalition with the Greens and Labour, which in my opinion would be more democratic.