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Emergency Aid To Gaza Halted Because Israel Says So?

(208 Posts)
mae13 Tue 30-Jan-24 01:14:25

Israel claims that UN aid workers were involved in the October 7 attack and - without any independent proof - UN suspends aid with immediate effect.
Why? Does Netanyahu - an unbalanced individual at best - have so much influence on the United Nations, an organisation which has proved itself fairly useless down the decades?

Whitewavemark2 Sat 03-Feb-24 08:31:04

Intent is also considered, and judging by the comments from many Israeli government officials - it would appear the “intent” to kill all Palestinians, is certainly there.

The stated intention of Israel to rid the world of Hamas will never happen. Hamas is not just situated in Gaza, but in other Middle Eastern countries. It is an ideology, manifested in its officials. How do you “kill” an ideology with violence - you never will.

Diplomacy is the only route out of this dreadful situation.

maddyone Sat 03-Feb-24 08:13:15

Maybe others know better than me, but I thought that genocide was when whole populations were deliberately wiped out, or killed, or murdered, by another group or population. So the Holocaust was an attempted genocide but was not actually completed because only six million European Jews were murdered out of the estimated eleven million European Jews in existence at that time.
So it is, it seems to me, that what Israel is doing isn’t genocide, but could possibly become genocide. But I might be wrong about that.
The problem, whether it is genocide or not, is how far should Israel be allowed to defend itself against a murderous regime such as Hamas? Perhaps Israel should allow all women and children to leave and stay in a controlled area outside of Gaza but inside Israel until all this is over. I realise that women and older children have been found guilty of terrorism offences in Israel, but surely this would give the Israelis the opportunity to really finish Hamas in Gaza, whilst protecting the children and the women. Aid could then be available for the women and children at least.

Katie59 Sat 03-Feb-24 02:55:00

MayBee70

Katie59

Israel will know when Hamas has been defeated rockets will stop being launched and armed resistance in Gaza will stop.
The proper aid can be distributed in Gaza

Maybe we should have blitzed Ireland at the height of the IRA bombing campaign? Surprised that no one thought of that as a solution…

I do remember back when the troubles were at their height that one friend suggested towing Ireland out into the Atlantic and sinking it.
There was a lot of beer involved in that suggestion

Katie59 Sat 03-Feb-24 02:51:23

Has the US got any “moral authority” after Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. All they succeeded doing was destabilize whole regions, can we say that any changes in those countries were for the better.

Anniebach Sat 03-Feb-24 00:01:30

Sources close to !

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 23:57:15

CNN

More than 800 officials from the United States and Europe have signed a scathing criticism of Western policy towards Israel and Gaza, accusing their governments of possible complicity in war crimes.

In a statement obtained by CNN, the officials say there is a “plausible risk that our governments’ policies are contributing to grave violations of international humanitarian law, war crimes and even ethnic cleansing or genocide.”

They accuse their governments of failing to hold Israel to the same standards they apply to other countries and weakening their own “moral standing” in the world.

Among them are around 80 United States officials and diplomats.

BBC

More than 800 serving officials in the US and Europe have signed a statement warning that their own governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war could amount to "grave violations of international law".
The "transatlantic statement", a copy of which was passed to the BBC, says their administrations risk being complicit in "one of the worst human catastrophes of this century" but that their expert advice has been sidelined.
It is the latest sign of significant levels of dissent within the governments of some of Israel's key Western allies.
One signatory to the statement, a US government official with more than 25 years' national security experience, told the BBC of the "continued dismissal" of their concerns.
"The voices of those who understand the region and the dynamics were not listened to," said the official.
"What's really different here is we're not failing to prevent something, we're actively complicit. That is fundamentally different from any other situation I can recall," added the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The statement is signed by civil servants, diplomats and government officials from the US, the EU and 11 European countries including the UK, France and Germany.

MayBee70 Fri 02-Feb-24 23:42:52

Katie59

Israel will know when Hamas has been defeated rockets will stop being launched and armed resistance in Gaza will stop.
The proper aid can be distributed in Gaza

Maybe we should have blitzed Ireland at the height of the IRA bombing campaign? Surprised that no one thought of that as a solution…

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 23:28:09

Katie59

Israel will know when Hamas has been defeated rockets will stop being launched and armed resistance in Gaza will stop.
The proper aid can be distributed in Gaza

If nothing is done until that happens, there will be hardly anyone left to give aid to.

And I think that you have begun some way to answering my question.

Despite all the carnage, the devastation, the deaths, the hunger, the damage and terror, Hamas has not been prevented from its determination to rid itself of Israel.

The only way is diplomacy - it has only ever been diplomacy. Unless of course you have no care for a whole population of people whose lives are being shattered beyond repair.

They call that genocide don’t they?

Katie59 Fri 02-Feb-24 20:18:20

Israel will know when Hamas has been defeated rockets will stop being launched and armed resistance in Gaza will stop.
The proper aid can be distributed in Gaza

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 16:02:42

I am quite sure that the Israeli security know almost to the last man how many Hamas has been killed, so for me neither the BBC nor CNN are credible.

So the IDF have bombed hospitals, schools, mosques, universities, private residences, refugee camps because they contained Hamas.

And yet they do not give any figures, merely that they will stop the violence only when Hamas are completely destroyed.

So those children are being destroyed and maimed, starved and orphaned without anyone being assured that their deaths were not in vain, that indeed Hamas are being destroyed and the Israel is succeeding in its mission.

Glorianny Fri 02-Feb-24 15:26:02

In this BBC article the IDF admit they don't know how many Hamas fighters have been killed
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67764664

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 14:46:31

Thank you, do you know who supplied these figures?

Are they all in Gaza for example?

GrannyGravy13 Fri 02-Feb-24 14:40:23

Whitewavemark2

Another question I would be grateful for an answer.

Does anyone know how many Hamas have been killed or taken prisoner please?

According to CNN approximately 10,000 Hamas operatives have been killed along with around the same number wounded and therefore not functioning as fighters.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 14:36:17

Another question I would be grateful for an answer.

Does anyone know how many Hamas have been killed or taken prisoner please?

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 14:35:18

Yes gg13 the U.K. is involved to a lesser extent, but it is involved.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 02-Feb-24 14:31:42

In the period 2018-2022 Israel imported weapons totalling $2.7bn from two countries US $2.1bn Germany the remaining $546m.

92% of Israel’s weaponry is imported from USA

BAE supply head-up displays (HUDs) which provide information to pilots whilst flying.

ronib Fri 02-Feb-24 14:28:09

Yes Caleo and it’s likely to keep the weapons industry going for at least the next 100 years. Nothing seems to change.

Caleo Fri 02-Feb-24 14:23:59

The Book of Isaiah contains the following passage: "They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Yet the UK exports weapons to Israel

Glorianny Fri 02-Feb-24 14:02:02

Sorry Whitewavemark2 wasn't quite sure what you wanted. That was from a paper on the responsibility www.hrw.org/legacy/wr2k4/download/13.pdf
It also gives a degree of responsibility to countries which don't supply but enable the shipment of arms, possibly bought from an arms dealer, through its ports. There was a movement by unions to stop some of the equipment passing through UK ports to Israel.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 13:19:08

Glorianny

Whitewavemark2

There is another issue troubling me and perhaps someone could answer the question.

The ICJ has ruled that Israel has a case to answer re - genocide in Palestine.

So - if that is the case, are those countries supplying Israel with weapons to carry out this genocide therefore complicit?

The case isn't judged yet. The ICJ has just ruled there is a case to answer. If the Isreal is found guilty (and it may take years) then yes the countries supplying arms are complicit.

Yes I know that thank you -but your second post gives me the answer.

Glorianny Fri 02-Feb-24 12:51:05

The International Law Commission, in its
Articles on Responsibility of States for Internationally Wrongful Acts, adopted in 2001,
concluded that: “A State which aids or assists another State in the commission of an
internationally wrongful act by the latter is internationally responsible for doing so if: (a)
That State does so with knowledge of the circumstances of the internationally wrongful
act; and (b) The act would be internationally wrongful if committed by that State.”

Glorianny Fri 02-Feb-24 12:45:43

Whitewavemark2

There is another issue troubling me and perhaps someone could answer the question.

The ICJ has ruled that Israel has a case to answer re - genocide in Palestine.

So - if that is the case, are those countries supplying Israel with weapons to carry out this genocide therefore complicit?

The case isn't judged yet. The ICJ has just ruled there is a case to answer. If the Isreal is found guilty (and it may take years) then yes the countries supplying arms are complicit.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 12:05:20

There is another issue troubling me and perhaps someone could answer the question.

The ICJ has ruled that Israel has a case to answer re - genocide in Palestine.

So - if that is the case, are those countries supplying Israel with weapons to carry out this genocide therefore complicit?

Whitewavemark2 Fri 02-Feb-24 11:56:26

I have just been listening to Chris Gunness (British) who was the chief spokesperson for UNRWA until 2020, and still in close contact with the agency and its personnel.

With regard to funding - I suspect that Netanyahu would prefer that the agency was got rid of, but assuming it remains in existence then Gunness thinks it is highly likely that the oil rich Islamic states will pick up the tab.

Now, UNWRA has a condition of neutrality placed upon it, and has neutrality audits carried out (by the USA - chief founder until last week) on a regular basis. In practice apart from the conduct of the staff, this also means ensuring that educational material is not teaching extreme ideology etc to the school children. It has been carrying out its work successfully satisfying all the conditions imposed upon it for over 70 years.

One wonders how the lessening of western influence helps the situation as far as Israel is concerned - I not clear that it is a very intelligent move to cease funding and therefore influence at such troubled times.

I should add that Chris Gunness thinks that it is no coincidence that the so called evidence of 13 dodgy Hamas supporters (not yet independently verified) came out the day after the ICJ verdict.

I think he has a point.

Glorianny Fri 02-Feb-24 09:47:20

If Biden says it is intolerable things must be bad.