US mother charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Louella12

What happens if the child shoots his parents?

Would he/she/they be able to blame the parents?

Well, when they do, they usually do, any way, anywhere (including the UK)

For Louella -- whatever you saw, and the mother may have said in evidence, the prosecution had soc media evidence saying "look at the lovely present" -- and there was the gun in question.

Parents were also well aware of the boy's 'issues', hence the prosecution (with dad's scheduled soon). As several have said, good for them, maybe it will deter a few other barmpots over there.

Somebody raised their oddball 2nd Amendment (made sense in the 1700s and 1800s), and "should be changed"? Well, quite so, but it's in their DNA now, with swift squawks about "our rights" if someone suggests change. 15 years ago the Supreme Court said that criminals and the mentally ill had no such 2nd amendment rights, but they cannot even sort out the legislation for that.

In 2017 the Las Vegas massacre saw 60 or deaths, hundreds wounded, via a maniac shooting into a crowd. Chump, when asked, said they were "looking at" arms control laws. All he actually looked at was his postbox, to check when the next fat cheque appeared from the NRA.

The States over there all have slightly different gun laws (madness -- like a few counties here saying you can drive a car at 14?) -- and when told that say Japan has hardly any gun deaths, likely because it's almost impossible to get a legal gun, they say all our crims have a gun, I want one too.

There is also the definite feeling in the majority white population that almost all the problem with guns is due to Afro-Caribbeans and the drug or criminal 'culture'. This conveniently overlooks that most of the school and college mass slayings are by whites! As somebody on here said, the problem won't be getting better anytime soon!

grandetanteJE65 I think a parent's responsibility for a child has limits, if the child is doing things that it would be very difficult for a parent to know about. Activity online, for example, which could be of an unsuitable type .

You also need to take into account cultural issues. In the USA, it is quite normal for parents to buy, quite young children guns and no one sees anything problematic about this. Nothing the parents did in buying a gun for a child that age was exceptional.

What made this case a court case was that the child had mental problems and he had told his parents about them and there were ongoing problems at school. And, even in the USA, it is considered unacceptable to give a gun to someone who is mentally unstable. His parents knew this (though obviously they are denying it) - and still bought him a gun. This is why they have been charged.

What happens if the child shoots his parents?

Would he/she/they be able to blame the parents?

I think this is only right.

Surely parents everywhere are responsible for their children's behaviour until such time as the "child" legally becomes an adult?

Whether the child in question is mentally disturbed or not, is completely beside the point.

The mother bought a gun, gave it to her son, and apparently made no effort to find out what he wanted to use it for.

Can any sane person see the reasoning behind this?

Totally appropriate!! There are too many delinquent parents out there raising kids with mental health problems.

Parents are supposed to be responsible. Unfortunately Ms Crumbly is now going to be the poster person on how your life will end up if you don’t pay attention to your child.

She and her husband - WHY did they think buying their 17 yr old an assault rifle was a good thing?
USA Gundy

I don't think there is any debate to be had.

The parents were negligent by facilitating gun ownership, not storing them correctly, ignoring please for help and witholding information from the school.

They are guilty by proxy and deserve everything coming their way.

yahmeus.i started to write more about but you said for me

I'm American and I'm against private citizens owning guns. Unless they are hunters, I see no need, and the statistics show owning a gun for "protection " is more likely to raise the odds of your death by gun violence than to prevent it. As a mother and grand, our outdated constitution needs a serious amendment. These days we have to balance fear with desire to go to concerts, school, malls; anywhere. The rapid spread of information and connections we enjoy these days through the internet has also birthed a lot of hopeless culture for mass shootings, giving a roadmap or guide of sorts. Not all of America loves guns. All we need to do is look at other countries where it's working, and let go of pride.

apnews.com/article/oxford-high-school-shooting-parents-charged-47cdcdca2fbe801fb521d77caafcae45

My immediate reaction was "poor woman" but having read more details I'm not sure. She refused to take her child's problems seriously. There are so many things that could have helped prevent this tragedy. I think she has to take some responsibility.
Unfortunately the gun culture which contributed won't take any. Surely it should be possible to pass an act which required households with children to keep guns in secure places where they can't get them. That can't be against the constitution can it?

Many Americans take their children to the practice range. Their obsession with the right to bare arms is incomprehensible to us

Vintagegirl

He was 15 yrs and she took him to a shooting range to practice.

But obviously left him with access to the gun.

He was 15 yrs and she took him to a shooting range to practice.

For quite some time, especially with all the stabbings by those tregarded as chikdren that the responsibble adukts shoujd be charged too. Yes, supplying a weapon, definitely responsible too albeit lesser degree.I have

I think this is the right verdict in this particular case. It is not just a case of ignoring all the signs of something being seriously wrong and buying him a gun but their neglect all the way through that boy's life. In a way, he is their victim.
In our own country, I often see youngish children out on their own at all hours of the night making mayhem. When I was a youth worker, we had children much younger than our allocated age group (14-21) because they had been chucked out of the house whilst parents were down the pub. They would stay out until the parents returned home after pub chucking out time because they couldn't get in. Those children became troubled adults with criminal records. One has to ask, who was the criminal really.

Louella12

Just been hearing this mother giving evidence. It appears she didn't actually but him a gun, but it was a gun owning household and he had access to them.

We find it hard to understand how/ why guns are readily available, however in USA it's quite normal for millions.

Toddlers are taught to shoot and you can even purchase pistols, rifles and shotguns in different colours.

Not exactly true…his father bought him a gun…shortly after the school had had them in to discuss their son’s worrying behaviour. The mother was having an affair and it appears there was general neglect. The son’s own diary said he needed help but his parents were never there for him, etc, etc…
Obviously apportioning blame is a difficult one but following this case I think justice was done…interestingly the father’s case isn’t being held until March. I despair of the US legal system and the time it takes to get people to justice! Far worse than here…and just look at Trump’s indictments. He should be in Jail by now! But….

The genie is indeed out of the bottle Dickens and like you ^ I don't think there's much hope for any real change.^
I’m not sure that any government will be able to put a stop to it without cooperation from all parents, even those who think my child would never do that.

What could they do?

One way to evaluate that possibility of government action will be to see if the current or future governments put that on their election manifesto and follows it up promptly.
If that doesn’t appear . . .

Iam64

Good point Mollygo. It’s so difficult to monitor what high school children are seeing on line.
I understand Brianna’s mother has suggested a mobile phone for under 16 year olds, which blocks access to unacceptable, dangerous sites.

I understand Brianna’s mother has suggested a mobile phone for under 16 year olds, which blocks access to unacceptable, dangerous sites.

You can understand her reasoning, but I fear it would have limited success. Unless it was a mandatory ruling, I believe some parents wouldn't bother, and under 16s might well set themselves up with the standard smart 'phones. In similar fashion to the manner in which they got hold of 'adult' material - magazines, literature, videos, etc, before the birth of the internet.

I think the genie is out of the bottle. I don't know what the answer is. It appears the general consensus - regarding the internet - is that it's almost a human right to allow unrestricted content and that any attempt to curb it is censorship.

The only way we are ever going to deal with the problem is through education - not only of the under 16s, but those in charge of them.

I witnessed in my own family the disintegration of a young mind. My late ex husband's widowed sister allowed her son free-rein whilst she was pre-occupied with her own interests. Night after night he would rent, buy, steal or 'borrow' inappropriate videos (this was back in the 70s) and gorge himself on all kinds of sickening violence and perversions. When we visited, he'd regale us with the previous night's 'entertainment' in a manner that indicated a boastful 'victory' of his ability to enter into the 'adult' world. Fortunately, he was of a cheerful (and simple) disposition so there was no negative affect on his mental health. But he certainly had a warped mind. In this case, it was the parent in need of 'education'.

I admire those like Brianna's mother - trying to make something 'good' come out of such an awful tragedy; so painfully aware of their own misery they want to prevent it happening to others. And, of course, it's a (positive) way of processing their grief. Unfortunately, if it involves government action, they will be very hot on sympathy but unless such preventative action directly coincides with their self-interest as individuals and as a party, I don't think there's much hope for any real change.

I saw the headline and thought it was ridiculous. But as I read on I actually started agreeing it. Why on earth someone would buy their kid a gun confounds me.

Yes Iam64, but experience with teens shows me that as fast as we put limitations on what children access, those who want to will find a way round it. The leader of the group who bullied my DHD certainly did.

Most of the parents of high school, or even upper primary don’t know how to stop or even limit access.
I’ll be interested to see a phone that imposes the limits that Mrs Ghey wants
and to see how long it would take those children so inclined to get round the limitations.

Good point Mollygo. It’s so difficult to monitor what high school children are seeing on line.
I understand Brianna’s mother has suggested a mobile phone for under 16 year olds, which blocks access to unacceptable, dangerous sites.

rafichagran

In the case of Jennifer Crumbley I made it quite clear given the circumstances she should have been prosecuted and mad to stand trial, but not all parents of children who go of the rails are to blame as I quoted upthread.
Crumbley in my opinion is culpable.

You did make it clear. We know that not all parents of children who go off the rails are to blame. This was a parent who facilitated, or contributed to her child’s ability to kill by supplying the gun and ignoring signals of his deteriorating behaviour.
A concern now might be should parents be held responsible for their children’s actions if they don’t monitor their use of the internet?

In the case of Jennifer Crumbley I made it quite clear given the circumstances she should have been prosecuted and mad to stand trial, but not all parents of children who go of the rails are to blame as I quoted upthread.
Crumbley in my opinion is culpable.

rafichagran - my working and personal life means that I met many families like the one you describe. One child out of 3, 5 or 7 goes right off the rails, whilst their siblings are hard working members of society leading ‘ordinary’ lives. Often the difficult child describes a totally different childhood experience than the other adult children. They’ll blame their parents, seeming unable to take responsibility for their own behaviour.
Having acknowledged that not all parents can be held responsible - this mother buying a gun for her disturbed 15 year old is in a different league.