Azar Ali

Anniebach

Hamas would have won a massive victory can only mean the majority believe in all they do

Not really! The choice Gazans have had up to now has been Hamas or Fatah, led by Mahmoud Abbas, who is seen as corrupt and ineffectual. Despite attempts at conciliation with Israeli, settlers have still walked in and grabbed West Bank territory and sometimes used violence. Gazans want a government which will protect them and they thought Hamas would.

The current actions by Israel will have hardened Gazan's attitudes to Israel. They haven't got much to lose, so of course they'd vote for "hard men" who will fight for them.

The topic of this thread is Councillor Ali Azar's comments and the action of the Labour party (for which he is standing) in response.

Mr Azar's comments were those of someone without any knowledge trying to whip up the support of prospective voters by saying what he thinks they want to hear. That alone says quite a bit.

I think that Keir Starmer was between a rock and a hard place: he was condemned whichever way he jumped and I actually feel sorry for the man. However, he has shown he is principled (after new knowledge of Cllr. Azar came to light) and I now admire him, his stance took some courage.

As to other comments on this thread regarding Israel/Hamas, I think that only one has mentioned the fact that Hamas knew (and please please please, do understand this) exactly what would happen when they planned their atrocities of October 7th. Could any sane person believe that Hamas, hiding their fighters in hospitals, schools and apartment buildings, did not understand that they would be chased down and attacked?

If one's county is attacked, one fights back. One fights to a stage when the enemy is undermined and does not have the capacity to fight further. Please just think of WW11, not very long ago. We dropped bombs and killed countless thousands of innocent people, as was done to us.

If Hamas thought that Israel would not retaliate it shows an unbelievable level of arrogance. If Hamas knew Israel would retaliate, where are all the stocks of food and water their population would need? Oh, they seem to have forgotten their own poor people.

I don't suppose many are interested but just in case, Hezbollah has launched more than 2,000 rockets on Israel since the 7 October. Do you read about these attacks?

11,000 rockets have now been fired out of Gaza to Israel. Some 10-20% have fallen short and hit their own people.

80,000 people have been displaced in Israel, being moved away from the border. A similar number of Lebanese people have been moved too.

The news is now focused on Rafah: there are still four (out of 24) brigades of Hamas living amongst the population. These have, have to be wiped out, else the killing will continue for everyone, longer.

There has been a French proposal for Hamas to pull back ten kilometres from the border which would be policed by Lebanese troops. No comment from Hamas yet but don't forget the upper echelons of Hamas are now fighting for their survival of villas with pools, expensive cars etc. Not all Palestinians are poor huddled masses.

Incidentally I am still very puzzled: why there have been no marches in London/around the world, for the poor repressed Syrians or North Koreans, or any other of the many people living under such regimes? Mmmm, I think I can guess why......

.

Galloway spoke in my northern mill town. - he said 911 done by the Israelis and the Americans to blame Muslims - most of the audience applauded this

January 1994, Galloway faced some of his strongest criticism on his return from a Middle Eastern visit during which he had met Saddam Hussein. At his meeting with the Iraqi leader, he reported the support given to Saddam by the people of the Gaza Strip which he had just visited: "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability ... I can honestly tell you that there was not a single person to whom I told I was coming to Iraq and hoping to meet with yourself who did not wish me to convey their heartfelt, fraternal greetings and support."[55] He ended his speech with the statement "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability."[56] He said that he was saluting the Iraqi people, rather than Saddam Hussein, in the speech,[37] which meaning was accurately translated for the Iraqi leader.

Anniebach

Prior to the Mail’s second story, Jewish Labour Movement national chair Mike Katz also warned “handing” the by-election to controversial rival George Galloway will be “a Pyrrhic victory for those calling on Labour to go further now”. Galloway once told a political meeting: “We have declared Bradford an Israel-free zone”

I can believe it.
Having once seen a tv programme on Bradford ( shudder) I pity anyone who has to live there.
For all the arguing on this thread, one bright spot in the darkness, this Rochdale hopeful for the by election is now toxic and won’t be standing for Labour again I sincerely hope.There’s plenty of time to get a better candidate in place for the GE.

Prior to the Mail’s second story, Jewish Labour Movement national chair Mike Katz also warned “handing” the by-election to controversial rival George Galloway will be “a Pyrrhic victory for those calling on Labour to go further now”. Galloway once told a political meeting: “We have declared Bradford an Israel-free zone”

Hamas would have won a massive victory can only mean the majority believe in all they do

Urmstongran

An iron grip on the Gaza population:

The last elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) were held on 25 January 2006. There have not been any elections either for president or for the legislature since these two elections.

Consider why there haven't been elections. The main reason seems to be that Hamas would have won a massive victory and this was unacceptable to many, including the Palestinian president, other countries and Israel. I wonder is it OK to disenfranchise people because you don't like their choices?

An iron grip on the Gaza population:

The last elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) were held on 25 January 2006. There have not been any elections either for president or for the legislature since these two elections.

Are ordinary Palestinians permitted to say to Hamas " No Thanks, I'm alright as I am , I don't want to join. I'll go for one of the other political parties"

Incidentally, Annie1, the report that the Israelis had intelligence about the 7 October attack was reported widely on 1 December 2023 on CNN and in the Jewish Post, amongst many others. It isn't only now being spouted on X by conspiracy theorists.

For example:

www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776012

Maybe they all got it wrong. Who knows?

Further reports then emerged that a surveillance unit had observed unusual activity, which was then ignored by senior IDF officers.

I know no more than anybody on GN what happens behind closed doors in Netanyahu's government, but somebody messed up badly, especially considering Israel boasts probably the best defensive systems in the world, and I would be amazed if "angry" words haven't been exchanged (at the least).

Urmstongran

This is twisting & turning at its best. Hamas are terrorists.
Let’s not forget that. It’s important to remember. If they didn’t factor retribution for their heinous acts they ought to have done so. I cannot believe they thought they would not be hunted down (amongst the myriad miles of tunnels they’ve spent exorbitant amounts of money building - at the expense of supplies to their OWN people over the years - no wonder Gazans are so impoverished) as the IDF sought to find those hostages.

I doubt if anybody has forgotten, but it's not the issue being discussed.

Anniel

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there.

I am being honest!

The point I am making is that when we condemn Iran, we are not condemning all Muslims everywhere else - we are not being anti-Muslim- in the same way that criticising the Israeli government under Netanyahu is not being anti-Semitic, nor are we attacking Judaism.

And sure, I'd rather live in Israel than Iran, but that's not the point either, I'm just addressing the accusations of anti-Semitism made to those who are critical of the Israeli government under Netanyahu, by using Iran as an example of how one can condemn a government without being anti its people.

As for your final para re pro Palestinian marches... I'm not part of that enclave of people so I have no idea what they think or what they believe will be achieved by their efforts, and had no idea they were in the British Museum because I am not a follower - nor am I on X.

Being critical of Netanyahu does not automatically make me a pro-Palestinian supporter you know.

And yes, I do know how Jewish people are not only suffering here but are very frightened about the future. My step-brother is Jewish so I know first hand. Though he's not living in London, thank goodness. He doesn't like Netanyahu either.

This is twisting & turning at its best. Hamas are terrorists.
Let’s not forget that. It’s important to remember. If they didn’t factor retribution for their heinous acts they ought to have done so. I cannot believe they thought they would not be hunted down (amongst the myriad miles of tunnels they’ve spent exorbitant amounts of money building - at the expense of supplies to their OWN people over the years - no wonder Gazans are so impoverished) as the IDF sought to find those hostages.

Anniel

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Dickens is being honest. I really don't understand your point about Iran. Yes, the vast majority of Iranians are Muslims, but it doesn't mean that the majority of them support their own government. It's an authoritarian government and we've seen from the way recent demonstrations were put down that the people have little choice.

I feel the same about Israelis. I utterly condemn the actions of the extremists in government and the settlers in the West Bank, but it doesn't mean that I have anything against ordinary Israelis - or Jews in other countries.

Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often

and you are free to have your opinion Annie1, but I think you will find that many sources, not just Twitter, are unclear as to the whys and wherefores of Israeli intelligence not being aware of or acting on reports of Hamas insurgence. It is also worth reminding ourselves that Netanyahu is immensley unpopular in Israel and there were mass demonstrations in Tel Aviv before October 7th. Before any accusations of anti-semitism fly my way; I dislike Netanyahu, dislike right wing populists like him who hang on to power too long, and I think that the action taken against the people of Gaza is disproportionate and cruel. This does not mean that I support Hamas.

I am also concerned, as we all should, that this terrible retribution on the Palestinian people is recruiting the next generation of terrorists who will blame us, the USA and Europe for not demanding that Israel stop, in fact we sell the weapons to them. Hundreds and thousands of young men who have seen their families blown to bits, have seen their parents and grandparents weep, who are unable to attend school, eat, drink clean water, who don't have a roof over their head are going to blame us because we didn't stop it

Apologies - I copied the typo in the heading.

His name is Azhar Ali.

Joseann

^Ali Azar is not an MP.^
Thanks. Oh well, that's exactly what I mean about people who aren't overly interested in politics, picking up wrong information and linking it to what they want to hear, and to justify their opinion of a political party on past issues.
He blew it for me, at a time when KS is struggling a bit too.

It's only the fact that he was chosen as a Labour candidate (again) that it has hit the headlines.

Starmer was slow to respond.
Unfortunately it could mean that Galloway could be elected.

Ali Azar is not an MP.
Thanks. Oh well, that's exactly what I mean about people who aren't overly interested in politics, picking up wrong information and linking it to what they want to hear, and to justify their opinion of a political party on past issues.
He blew it for me, at a time when KS is struggling a bit too.

Dickens

Surely, when we are critical of a nation's government, we are not condemning all the people governed by it?

The West is at loggerheads with Iran (for example) - are we reviling its people, many of whom appear also to be opposed to its own government? Are we censuring Islam because we denounce an administration that has appropriated the religion for its own ends?

Even within governments, there are factions that disagree, we've seen it with our own government.

Are we then to keep quiet, not question, not hold governments accountable?

Azhar Ali was wrong to say that Israel planned to "get rid of [Palestinians] from Gaza" and "grab" some of the land - because he is presenting it as a fact, and as far as I know has offered no evidence to support it. If you are in the 'public eye' you cannot make inflammatory statements like that and not be held accountable, and the Labour Party should have withdrawn its support for him as a candidate immediately.

In the interests of free-speech and Democracy, one can still ask the question though of why - if the Israeli government was made aware of the intelligence that indicated Hamas might be planning an attack (and such intelligence allegedly came from more than one source) - they appeared to ignore it. Surely those whose family members were slaughtered so barbarically in the attack have a right to know and will want to know if it could have been prevented? Governments have a duty to protect their citizens - as far as is possible anyway.

Dickens, re Iran. Be honest because we know Iran is an is an Islamic country. I know of no other religion being practised there. The government is in no way democratic and women who refused to wear the hijab have been killed or are serving long prison sentences.. I wouldn’t like the chances of any politician that opposed ANY government policy. It is Iran who is funding the attacks on world shipping in the area. Say what you like but Israel is the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. The Israelis can vote Netanyahu out of office.The Iranian people do not have that possibility. Re Israel knowing beforehand about October 7th another canard originating in Egypt and now being spouted on X with no proof .You may not like Netanyahu but I do not believe these stories. London has these pro Palestinian marches far too often. If these people
believe it will make any difference to government policy they are mistaken.. The way Jewish people in London are suffering is truly awful. Do you think staging an occupation of the British Museum will gain these people more support. I think not.

Callistemon21

Anniel

I just heard that Labour will not have a candidate in the Rochdale seat as Mr Ali was declared a candidate and Labour cannot choose another Labour representative. Is that really the case? Sir Keir’s decision was indeed a tough one for his party. Please do not elect George Galloway voters of Rochdale!

It was too late for the party to replace Mr Ali as its candidate

^The decision means that Mr Ali will remain on the ballot as the Labour candidate for Rochdale, but if he is elected he will sit as a independent MP or join another party.^

Callistemon21. Thank you. I heard a commentator on the news saying that. He was mistaken and so was I!

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

Ali Azar is not an MP.

He is a Councillor and was the Labour candidate in the forthcoming by-election.
He stood twice before as a Labour Parliamentary candidate but failed to win.

It is too late to change the names on the ballot papers so he will appear as the Labour candidate but will have to join another party or stand as an independent if he wins.

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

As I see it, that MP might not necessarily have been wrong to speak his mind, but he has to live with the consequences. Greater than that, his party has to live with the consequences.

It might only be a short term issue in one sense, but, for those who don't "do" politics in a big way, it just brings to the fore another outspoken politician who is likely to go off on a rant, which isn't a good look. Some voters who may have been undecided are once again put off voting for that party because he didn't choose his words with care. Quite apart from what we feel about the Israel crisis.

Anniebach

The lack of action spoken of here is the government of Israel
allowing the massacre of Israeli citizens

I think most of us are aware that intelligence regarding possible Hamas attacks is a constant - the threat is always there and the Israeli Defence has to filter this information on a daily basis. It's quite possible that there are warnings of attacks/ incursions that don't materialise - so the IDF can't 'jump' on every single piece of netted intelligence - I assume it has to weigh the evidence and just 'watch' on occasions.

Also, what intelligence the IDF might have received would not necessarily indicate the scale of the possible attack - which is why Ali was so wrong to say what he did because he didn't back it up with any evidence, proof or new information, and on that basis alone the LP should have immediately distanced itself from him, especially given the Party's history of anti-Semitism, because his comment just sounded like more of the same.

All countries suffering terrorist attacks investigate afterward - "how did it happen", "could it have been prevented"... those questions are quite normal and justified. Considering the absolute - almost unimaginable - horror of this particular one, these questions need to be asked. And is is not anti-Semitic to ask them.

Aveline

Of course it's not justifiable. Is that MP wrong though?

I think he was wrong, he only apologised when he realised his remarks may cause him to lose votes.

In this instance the LOTO acted far too slowly, if he had acted quicker there would have been time to put up another Labour candidate.