Azar Ali

Statement from the House of Bishops 13.02.24. I am pleased to see the Church of England has changed it's position and use the words "The manner in which this war is being prosecuted cannot be morally justified. " See below.

"With the onset of Israel’s ground offensive into Rafah, we call for an immediate ceasefire. The relentless bombardment of Gaza and its huge cost in civilian lives and civilian infrastructure must stop. The manner in which this war is being prosecuted cannot be morally justified.

We urge Israel to adhere to the ICJ order and to ensure that Palestinians have access to food, water, healthcare, and safety, that have long been denied to them. We welcome the Foreign Secretary’s recent call for an immediate pauseThe manner in which this war is being prosecuted cannot be morally justified. in the fighting and would also welcome further representation to the Government of Israel about the way that it is exercising its right to self-defence and to affirm adherence to international law.

We continue to advocate for the release of the remaining hostages and an end to the missile attacks on Israel by Hamas. All sides must begin to imagine a future beyond this conflict: for a just peace for Israelis and Palestinians. This war can’t result in the consolidation of a system of occupation that has for too long denied Palestinians their rights and freedoms. "

www.churchofengland.org/media/press-releases/statement-house-bishops-war-gaza-0

Iam64

So, your conclusion is that anti semitism was created by Christianity. Your determination to deny or minimise anti semitism in the Muslim community isn’t constructive and does not reflect what’s happening right now

It certainly doesn’t reflect what’s happening now, but it suits some to ignore that.

Glorianny, Anniebach asked
why march in London Jewish communities?
Do you have an explanation for that?

Iam64

So, your conclusion is that anti semitism was created by Christianity. Your determination to deny or minimise anti semitism in the Muslim community isn’t constructive and does not reflect what’s happening right now

I'm not diminishing anything. Simply pointing out that Muslims are not and have never been entirely opposed to Jews. That many of the roots of antisemitism lie in the doctrines of Christianity and trying to blame one section of society for something which is abhorrent is neither accurate nor helpful.

Nor is it really anything to do with the campaign for Palestinian people to be protected and return to their homes. Many Jews support Palestinian rights.
Many Jews agree with Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi when she says Jews must always stand on the side of the oppressed never the oppressor. She believes Jews who speak for Palestine are ignored www.thenational.scot/news/23895898.pro-palestine-jewish-voices-silenced-media-politicians/

Yesterday there was another march in London, police made 12 arrests, the police also had to stop marches through Jewish communities, why march in London Jewish communities? carried out by Christians or antisemites ? the fear in those
communities must be so strong

So, your conclusion is that anti semitism was created by Christianity. Your determination to deny or minimise anti semitism in the Muslim community isn’t constructive and does not reflect what’s happening right now

.
That isn't to say there was no conflict

Exactly!

Mollygo

*Muslims who until the present conflict and the imposition of Israel on previously Arab lands had few problems with Jews.*

Proof of this statement?

Bernard Lewis states:

Generally, the Jewish people were allowed to practice their religion and live according to the laws and scriptures of their community. Furthermore, the restrictions to which they were subject were social and symbolic rather than tangible and practical in character. That is to say, these regulations served to define the relationship between the two communities, and not to oppress the Jewish population

Professor of Jewish medieval history at Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Hayim Hillel Ben-Sasson, notes:

The legal and security situation of the Jews in the Muslim world was generally better than in Christendom, because in the former, Jews were not the sole "infidels", because in comparison to the Christians, Jews were less dangerous and more loyal to the Muslim regime, and because the rapidity and the territorial scope of the Muslim conquests imposed upon them a reduction in persecution and a granting of better possibility for the survival of members of other faiths in their lands.

According to the French historian Claude Cahen, Islam has "shown more toleration than Europe towards the Jews who remained in Muslim lands."

There are records of Jews holding positions of power in Al Andalus.
Along with Christians they were accorded some protections.
That isn't to say there was no conflict but it was not as organised nor as damaging as Christian rule, when the Jewish communities in Spain and eventually in Portugal were destroyed by the Inquisition.

Glorianny I've noticed you posting several times using italics to indicate quoting passages. Please would it be possible for you to link to or name your source material? Thanks.

Muslims who until the present conflict and the imposition of Israel on previously Arab lands had few problems with Jews.

Proof of this statement?

Iam64

We all know that Muslims, jews, Christians, Hindus and more have lived peacefully if not together, then side by side. These peaceful arrangements break down, sometime get re established
Israelis are not ‘a completely different group of people” . They’re Jewish people who as in every other country don’t all support their government
What they all share is a history of pogroms, the holocaust and being the only group of people I’m aware of who have bern banished from wherever they settled, threatened by Hitler and more recently by their neighbours with being wiped off the face of the earth
You avoided the question Gloryannie - who was responsible for anti semitism

Well if you don't understand that two of the basic beliefs of antisemitism are based on original Christian tropes about Jews, it really isn't my fault. But they are there.
The Jews’ started to appear in several Christian stories. Eventually this led to Origen writing in the fourth century ‘the Jews…nailed Christ to the cross’. Origen’s words were taken literally, and this story became the common belief for some Christians
This story, amongst many other factors, was part of a long history of tension between Christianity and Judaism that led to significant antisemitism throughout medieval history

Along with the belief that usury was a sin and Jews benefited from money lending leading to the trope that Jews controlled financial operations worldwide
The fact of Jewish overrepresentation in occupations that Christians largely regarded as degenerate emerged a stereotype of the Jew as the embodiment of commercial greed, exploiter of the poor and the source of economic pain and misery for the masses
So two Christian beliefs underlie antisemitism.
But we now blame it largely on Muslims who until the present conflict and the imposition of Israel on previously Arab lands had few problems with Jews.

Glorianny

I asked first!!! I realise the answer won't be acceptable to some who want to make it an entirely Muslim problem. But the Muslims had no problems with Jews and so cannot be held responsible in any way for the dispossession Callistemon21 refers to.

Whereas the Israelis (a completely different group of people) are directly responsible for taking the land from Palestinians and not permitting them to return.

But I did not say that, did I!!

You really couldn't make it up, could you

Oh - you just did, Glorianny!!

We all know that Muslims, jews, Christians, Hindus and more have lived peacefully if not together, then side by side. These peaceful arrangements break down, sometime get re established
Israelis are not ‘a completely different group of people” . They’re Jewish people who as in every other country don’t all support their government
What they all share is a history of pogroms, the holocaust and being the only group of people I’m aware of who have bern banished from wherever they settled, threatened by Hitler and more recently by their neighbours with being wiped off the face of the earth
You avoided the question Gloryannie - who was responsible for anti semitism

I asked first!!! I realise the answer won't be acceptable to some who want to make it an entirely Muslim problem. But the Muslims had no problems with Jews and so cannot be held responsible in any way for the dispossession Callistemon21 refers to.

Whereas the Israelis (a completely different group of people) are directly responsible for taking the land from Palestinians and not permitting them to return.

Iam64

Tell us, who was responsible for anti semitism

That’s a good idea Iam64 and Callistemon21.
But . . .

Please tell

Yes, do tell us, Glorianny

Tell us, who was responsible for anti semitism

Callistemon21

^Of course the history is viewed differently, but what is absolutely certain is that there is a huge group of Palestinian people who have been dispossessed and driven out of their homeland^

You could substitute Jewish for Palestinian and more than once too.

Really? You know of a group of Jewish refugees currently living in refugee camps, with no prospect of returning to their homeland? Or are you actually just using historical events? Which really the Palestinians had no part in.

In fact if we want to go back far enough Jews lived very comfortably in lands ruled by Muslims for centuries. El Andalus had Jewish settlements where they lived until Christians drove out the Muslims and the Spanish inquisition began. When they had a choice, convert or die, some converted and still died. So who was responsible for antisemitism?

Of course the history is viewed differently, but what is absolutely certain is that there is a huge group of Palestinian people who have been dispossessed and driven out of their homeland

You could substitute Jewish for Palestinian and more than once too.

I’m waiting for you to say anything suggesting you hold Hamas entirely responsible for the October massacre, the rape of women, burning babies in ovens and allegedly, terrorists phoning their parents to boast of these actions

Unless and until both sides stop fighting, training armies, stockpiling weapons, issuing threats etc. it will carry on
It might help if the US and the UK stopped supplying weapons to Israel.
A Dutch court has ruled that allowing the parts to be exported through Dutch facilities is illegal, under international law.
www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/12/court-orders-netherlands-to-halt-delivery-of-fighter-jet-parts-to-israel

I don’t have to associate Hamas with Palestinian people. They do it for themselves.

It doesn't lessen their right to have a place they can live in and call home.

And that applies to both sides of this conflict.
They deserve a place to live in and call home that won’t result in attacks on innocent people on either side.

Unless and until both sides stop fighting, training armies, stockpiling weapons, issuing threats etc. it will carry on.

Of course the history is viewed differently, but what is absolutely certain is that there is a huge group of Palestinian people who have been dispossessed and driven out of their homeland. And Israel refuses to allow them to return.

If we draw parallels with Ukraine, when the Russians occupied and controlled the land many Ukrainians fled to the UK and the US. They kept their traditions alive and eventually some of the children and grandchildren of those people returned to live in Ukraine. No such a right has ever been accorded to Palestinians they remain third and fourth generation refugees.
You may associate Hamas with those people if you wish. It doesn't lessen their right to have a place they can live in and call home. No person should be termed a refugee all of their life.

The history is viewed differently by different groups. The present doesn’t need to continue the argument. A political solution is needed

In the end it won’t make any difference. People will die.
Unless both sides stop fighting, training armies, stockpiling weapons, issuing threats etc. it will carry on.
Since Hamas, rightly or wrongly is associated in many people’s minds with Palestinians, watching flags supporting Palestine trooping through London doesn’t help to calm things.