Looking Back On 14 Years Of Austerity - For What?

The quote you decided to highlight Doodledog was NOT actually from me but another poster who said, it’s not helpful for those who have succeeded financially to say that they got where they are by sheer hard work, because it makes those who have less money feel that they have failed.

nightowl

But I didn’t say anything Joseann about people being boastful or others displaying envy or ‘creating barriers to their own success’. That sounds like blaming those not doing so well for not doing better.

I think suggesting that people should ‘explore their own feelings towards the wealth of others’ is unbelievably patronising and spectacularly misses the point that it is far harder for younger generations to succeed in the society we have allowed to flourish - dog eats dog, everyone for themselves, politicians whose only remit is to pocket as much as possible at the expense of the rest of us. There is simply no concept of public service in politics any longer.

I didn't say anything about boasting or envy either. That is the sort of thing that is often read into comments about unfairness. I very seldom mention my own circumstances on threads like these, as they are not remotely relevant. If it helps though, I'm not poor, have never really struggled, I own my own home with no mortgage, and - surprise surprise - have worked hard all my life, and still do at 65. That doesn't mean that I can't see that life is bloody unfair, and that the fact that house prices in particular are insanely expensive is directly affecting those who also work hard but will never have the chance to buy a home. I would not be anywhere near as comfortable if I had to pay rent, as the increased SPA means that I am still waiting for the pension that others got at 60. Many people are facing a retirement on the breadline because the housing market is stacked against them, and deliberate austerity measures make their lives miserable.

Workers' rights have been eroded, zero hours contracts are hampering so many people when it comes to getting mortgages and the security that that brings, people such as HCAs and teaching assistants are having to use foodbanks, and lots of people are forced into dependency (and the resulting loss of control over their lives) by a system that allows employers to pay low wages and have them made up by Universal Credit.

I'm sorry if it makes those who have less money feel that they have failed. Perhaps it would make sense to explore how their negative feelings towards the wealth of others could be changed into something more positively productive for them.
I certainly don't feel that I have failed, and I don't have negative feelings towards the wealth of others . Talk about projecting! Any negative feelings I do have are towards those who don't understand that austerity is cruel and unnecessary, and think that 'sheer hard work' is exclusive to those who have made a lot of money, or that there can't be austerity because there has been an increase in the number of millionaires.

The Tories are far more concerned about millionaires than about the poor, which is, of course, the driving force behind austerity. In the context of this thread, that needs to be said, and saying it has nothing to do with envy or resentment. I agree that suggesting it has is patronising and tone deaf.

PS sorry nightowl it wasn't specifically you in that quote at 8.08, but boasting and smug were mentioned somewhere more than once.

Calendargirl

Covid didn’t exactly help though, did it?

The way it was handled didn’t help either, so much money was wasted and ended up in the wrong hands.

nightowl I wasn't suggesting that people themselves should explore their negative feelings towards wealth, but more that society or the system should set out to do so. If you jumped to the immediate conclusion that I was being unbelievably superior, then that confirms the thinking going on here.

One thing for sure you are not going to improve your prospects unless you work hard, not only that you need to make the right decisions, starting from school days.
It’s tough at the top in any organization so don’t aim for that if you are average, learn a skill that someone will pay you for, hairdresser, accounts, chef, anything that gets you out of the minimum wage trap.

I don't think the gifted children are on the Special Needs Register for funding Sarnia, but schools should have a MAGT policy. Someone will correct this if I'm wrong.

But I didn’t say anything Joseann about people being boastful or others displaying envy or ‘creating barriers to their own success’. That sounds like blaming those not doing so well for not doing better.

I think suggesting that people should ‘explore their own feelings towards the wealth of others’ is unbelievably patronising and spectacularly misses the point that it is far harder for younger generations to succeed in the society we have allowed to flourish - dog eats dog, everyone for themselves, politicians whose only remit is to pocket as much as possible at the expense of the rest of us. There is simply no concept of public service in politics any longer.

Joseann

That's true Sarnia, more money is certainly needed for SEND children, but following my thoughts above if you like, more money is also needed for the extremely talented and gifted children at the other end of the scale, or we won't have entrepreneurs and innovators for the future.

True. Gifted children used to come under SEND but may not these days. I wonder if there is a mindset that the naturally gifted and bright children 'will get on anywhere' so are not as urgent as the children with learning issues. It's a shame if that's the case and a very short-sighted view.

That's true Sarnia, more money is certainly needed for SEND children, but following my thoughts above if you like, more money is also needed for the extremely talented and gifted children at the other end of the scale, or we won't have entrepreneurs and innovators for the future.

Austerity hasn't helped the SEND process in this country either. Over the years, better knowledge and understanding has resulted in more children being diagnosed with various conditions which come under the SEND umbrella. Therefore more money was needed to keep pace with this increase and used to build more specialist schools and train teachers to staff them. This hasn't happened. We now have a situation whereby parents with a SEND child have to battle for years, in the majority of cases, to get a fitting education for their child. It all boils down to money and little thought is given to the child at the heart of this matter. Tony Blair trumpeted "Education, education, education" as his mantra but did very little to help those with SEND and that has continued to this day.

nightowl

The growing number of millionaires may not directly affect the lives of poorer people but a society with such extremes of wealth, with the gap between the richest and poorest ever widening, is a recipe for dissatisfaction and the growing feelings of alienation amongst younger gestations who can never hope to own their own home or achieve security of employment. This cannot be healthy.

I always find these discussions interesting from different perspectives. I don't see anyone here, who might be a millionaire, being boastful or self-congratulatory, but simply saying how it was for them in life.

If poorer people believe that the only way people become rich is to deliberately do so at the expense of others, then are they themselves not unconsciously exhibiting envy and thereby creating a barrier to their own success? What I mean is that neither extreme is doing anything wrong on purpose, and in my opinion, neither extreme need exhibit smugness on the one side nor resentment on the other. In fact, are sides even necessary at all?

I'm sorry if it makes those who have less money feel that they have failed. Perhaps it would make sense to explore how their negative feelings towards the wealth of others could be changed into something more positively productive for them.

nightowl

The growing number of millionaires may not directly affect the lives of poorer people but a society with such extremes of wealth, with the gap between the richest and poorest ever widening, is a recipe for dissatisfaction and the growing feelings of alienation amongst younger gestations who can never hope to own their own home or achieve security of employment. This cannot be healthy.

Exactly. And the constant reference to hard work, with its implication that the young are idle, plus the ridiculous price of housing (which, before I am lambasted, I am not saying is the fault of individual home owners) contribute to the alienation of the young and the poor. Austerity only makes their lives harder.

Has the OP been back to this thread?

There is always money down the back of the sofa for foreign wars, lining the pockets of corrupt politicos and keeping illegal immigrants in 4 star luxury.

The growing number of millionaires may not directly affect the lives of poorer people but a society with such extremes of wealth, with the gap between the richest and poorest ever widening, is a recipe for dissatisfaction and the growing feelings of alienation amongst younger gestations who can never hope to own their own home or achieve security of employment. This cannot be healthy.

Casdon The ones that I have the greatest concern for are those who can’t manage even though they do work hard, because the jobs they do don’t attract high salaries - and I’d wager there are more in that category currently than in any of the others. Society isn’t structured so that everybody who works hard and has talent rises to the top.

I agree.

Really that's the point, however, what impact is the growing number of millionaires? Millionaires are a negative for poor people?

Casdon

I can guarantee that there are millions who do well because they work just as hard or harder than you did Germanshepherdsmum, none of us are special in that respect. Equally, there are millions who just fall lucky, and make their fortunes without overly exerting themselves, millions who don’t work hard and get by, millions who don’t work hard and don’t get by. The ones that I have the greatest concern for are those who can’t manage even though they do work hard, because the jobs they do don’t attract high salaries - and I’d wager there are more in that category currently than in any of the others. Society isn’t structured so that everybody who works hard and has talent rises to the top.

That is what I was getting at. The thread is about austerity and the damage it has done to millions of people. I have no doubt that anecdotes about individuals are true, but they don't alter the fact that hard work and paying a mortgage (or someone else's mortgage if you can't save enough for a deposit) is a way of life for most people. It comes across as very smug to say that the fact that there are more millionaires than there used to be has not happened at the expense of the poor, or imply that this was an opportunity open to all. It isn't, and austerity simply widens the gap between millionaires and those in poverty.

Glorianny

There's nothing surer
The rich get rich and the poor get poorer
In the meantime, in between time
Ain't we got fun?

Yep Glorianny, and it's the poor or immigrants that get the blame.

Maddyone. I will never forget the Lib Dem's part in all of this. They didn't hesitate to jump in bed with the enemy or to support policies that should branded on their collective backsides.

I can guarantee that there are millions who do well because they work just as hard or harder than you did Germanshepherdsmum, none of us are special in that respect. Equally, there are millions who just fall lucky, and make their fortunes without overly exerting themselves, millions who don’t work hard and get by, millions who don’t work hard and don’t get by. The ones that I have the greatest concern for are those who can’t manage even though they do work hard, because the jobs they do don’t attract high salaries - and I’d wager there are more in that category currently than in any of the others. Society isn’t structured so that everybody who works hard and has talent rises to the top.

We're all in this together- I think was the soundbite- what Cameron and Osborne meant was they were all in it together ie- Tories looking after their own and the rest of us going to hell in a hand cart.

What I have - and I have no intention of disclosing how much that is - is solely down to hard work and paying a mortgage out of taxed income. I came from a working class family and worked hard to obtain a professional qualification whilst working full time, as you will know from my previous posts. I have obtained no preferential treatment in this life and what I have has not been obtained at the expense of anyone else. My hard work was, initially, studying in the evenings, weekends, holidays, on top of a full time job - and latterly, working seven days a week. Nobody can tell me what hard work is.

It goes without saying that aspirations should be encouraged. I’m in the same camp as GG13 and GSM, I worked hard and improved my lot in life. I own my home - north west so worth much less than if I transported it to the south east

None of this means I’m anything less than disgusted by the austerity programme and the way it took a wrecking ball to our nhs and public services. I’d pay more tax because that would help those less fortunate than myself

GrannyGravy13

Doodledog it was sheer hard work that enabled us and the majority of homeowners to buy our homes, whilst paying tax on income along with high interest rates on the mortgage.

I am so sick and tired of being berated on GN for being a homeowner in the South East, it is not a crime (yet)

It is not a crime, and there is no blame attached to home owners in the SE. I do, however, take issue with people saying that the profits they made from living in their homes is hard work.

GSM, I know you separated the two, but it is so often said (on here and elsewhere) that people have worked for their money, when what is meant is just paying a mortgage on a house that has risen in value, as though that is not true of most of us. I am not 'bashing' or castigating anyone - simply saying, on a thread about austerity, that it is insensitive at best to say that the fact that there are now X number of millionaires is not at the expense of the poor, and even more so to suggest that people are millionaires because of sheer hard work when it is clear that there is a lot more to it than that.

A lot of what happens in life is because of luck, and I am the first to say that everyone should work and contribute to society (and regularly get taken to task for that, too ). It's one thing to benefit from that luck, which may be caused by being born in a family that is supportive, by living in an area of rising prices, by getting the excellent education that is often boasted about on here, having good health, an inheritance, a lottery win or many other things - but the suggestion that all of that is down to hard work, as though the poor don't work hard too has to be challenged, as it is quite offensive.

Casdon there are still youngsters doing well, not all are graduates.

I see lots of young people who have gone into the building industry who are making more money than most graduates can only dream of.

I acknowledge that there are many in poverty, but aspirations should always be encouraged.

I agree GrannyGravy13, and I’m not in any way against people aspiring to better their situation in life. Hard work should be rewarded with decent standard housing, healthcare, a good education for their children and enough money to enable them to have a decent life. Unfortunately for many people that isn’t what they get for their efforts now, and it’s not helpful for those who have succeeded financially to say that they got where they are by sheer hard work, because it makes those who have less money feel that they have failed, when they haven’t but the system has let them down.