Shemima Begum.

Giving the ruling, Lady Chief Justice Baroness Carr said: “It could be argued the decision in Ms Begum’s case was harsh. It could also be argued that Ms Begum is the author of her own misfortune.

“But it is not for this court to agree or disagree with either point of view.

“The only task of the court was to assess whether the deprivation decision was unlawful. Since it was not, Ms Begum’s appeal is dismissed.”

Thank you Germanshepherdsmum

Why are human rights cases singled out and allowed to? Doesn’t anybody ever question this?

I would very much like to know this to evaluate whether I , as an ordinary citizen, think she is likely to be a threat to the UK.

Are you likely to be an Appeal Court Judge if a future appeal is to be made?

We have to trust their judgement.

So you think the Security Services should divulge sensitive information, potentially useful to terrorists and possibly damaging to the British public?

Really?

Echoing GermanShephersMum's first post on this my thought on evaluating this person has always been that I think the British Public should know what the Home Secretary( was it Sajid Javid?) knew. I very clearly remember him saying this. I would very much like to know this to evaluate whether I , as an ordinary citizen, think she is likely to be a threat to the UK.

winterwhite

*GG13*’s point is unanswerable. I also think that dark mutterings of ‘‘if you knew what I know’ get us nowhere and should be substantiated or discounted. No one failed in their duty of care towards her. Young people do know their own minds at 15, tho they don’t know how limited their knowledge is.
So I don’t see a case for not allowing her back, to face trial and probably life imprisonment.
Calculating the cost of individual cases like this is pointless.

I also think that dark mutterings of ‘‘if you knew what I know’ get us nowhere and should be substantiated or discounted

Best ask Sajid Javid and the British Security Services that question then
🤔

foxie48

Callistemon21

if her school and other agencies had not failed in their duty of care towards her, she would never have left the country in the first place

Are schools responsible for what teenagers do out of school hours?
Which other agencies were involved and why? Was there any indication that she and her friends were anything other than normal teenagers?

news.sky.com/story/shamima-begum-police-and-school-missed-opportunities-to-stop-her-leaving-uk-lawyers-claim-12753383

This has been well reported, both her school and the police missed opportunities to prevent her and her two friends leaving the country.

Oh dear, yes, they did miss opportunities, then.

However, they were all very devious.

How could a school miss opportunities to prevent her from leaving the country? As an ex teacher I find that impossible to believe. As I understand it, the school could have reported the three girls to the relevant authorities if they were concerned about them becoming radicalised. There were clearly no signs of that otherwise the school would have done just that. Schools are very aware of the circumstances of their pupils, I know this from experience. The girls were clever, that the school did know about SB, and they clearly hid everything they were planning to do from all the adults in their lives. In actual fact, the parents were in the best position to notice anything unusual about their daughters, but they say there were no signs.

Would she face trial though? For what crimes committed in the UK?

Callistemon21

^if her school and other agencies had not failed in their duty of care towards her, she would never have left the country in the first place^

Are schools responsible for what teenagers do out of school hours?
Which other agencies were involved and why? Was there any indication that she and her friends were anything other than normal teenagers?

news.sky.com/story/shamima-begum-police-and-school-missed-opportunities-to-stop-her-leaving-uk-lawyers-claim-12753383

This has been well reported, both her school and the police missed opportunities to prevent her and her two friends leaving the country.

GG13’s point is unanswerable. I also think that dark mutterings of ‘‘if you knew what I know’ get us nowhere and should be substantiated or discounted. No one failed in their duty of care towards her. Young people do know their own minds at 15, tho they don’t know how limited their knowledge is.
So I don’t see a case for not allowing her back, to face trial and probably life imprisonment.
Calculating the cost of individual cases like this is pointless.

A legal question, one for GMS,since the crimes of SB were committed in another country, have the British any power at all to prosecute her here?
My instinct says no, she can’t be prosecuted for crimes committed abroad, but I don’t know if I’m right.

My first reaction is that she was a child who acted foolishly, and unfortunately the consequences of that folly were way beyond that which most 15 year olds have to face

Psychologists argue that the ability to appreciate the consequences of ones actions does not fully develop until the late teens. While children can be made to see the difference between right and wrong in a black and white sense they cannot always handle the subtleties of what they do. This was certainly the case in the killers of James Bulger when one was constantly asking if he could go home when the police were interviewing him. Although he knew he had killed a small child and that it was "wrong" he did not fully appreciate what that meant for his future life. Some of this (how people plan a course of action) relates directly to my Ph.D but I wont go into that as all my subjects were adults.

Turning to SB I do have quite a lot of sympathy for her, We do not know the extent to which she (may have been) radicalised. Islamic State were putting out some pretty strong propaganda to lure young women to volunteer to give themselves to the cause.

I believe she should be brought back to the UK and made to face justice (such as it is) here.

I think schools are required to monitor and report in pupils they feel are in danger of being radicalised.

Not that I'm blaming the school, at all.
Everyone really should report anything suspicious, but whether there was anything in this case I have no idea.

if her school and other agencies had not failed in their duty of care towards her, she would never have left the country in the first place

Are schools responsible for what teenagers do out of school hours?
Which other agencies were involved and why? Was there any indication that she and her friends were anything other than normal teenagers?

I rely on Javid and the judiciary.

foxie48

So much misinformation, her mother made a statement in 2022 and is in this country, her parents were, as already corrected, Bangladeshi. I haven't changed my mind about this. She should be allowed back into the country, she was a naive 15 year old, trafficked by older men and women and she has had an utterly vile life at the hands of ISIS. We should accept responsibility for her because frankly, if her school and other agencies had not failed in their duty of care towards her, she would never have left the country in the first place.

Failed in their duty of care towards her? Ah, that must be the reason why she hopped on a plane and flew thousands of miles to become an ISIS bride! It's always someone else's fault, isn't it, never the perpetrator.

To me she acts like a very devious person, knowing exactly how to play the cameras and reporters, goodness knows what she knows and is capable of now that she has mixed with whoever.

If let back to the UK she could turn at the blink of an eye.

As OP has said, we don't always have the best track record of " keeping an eye on someone".

Apologies: I should have made clear I was quoting from The Guardian.

She was not made stateless at the time her British citizenship was revoked but needed to confirm her Bangladeshi citizenship aged 21 which she did not do. Bangladesh officials state they would not now allow her citizenship.

nahsma

foxie48

So much misinformation, her mother made a statement in 2022 and is in this country, her parents were, as already corrected, Bangladeshi. I haven't changed my mind about this. She should be allowed back into the country, she was a naive 15 year old, trafficked by older men and women and she has had an utterly vile life at the hands of ISIS. We should accept responsibility for her because frankly, if her school and other agencies had not failed in their duty of care towards her, she would never have left the country in the first place.

Entirely this!

Rubbish. She was so clever she ran rings around her family, her school and everybody else to fund and plan her escape.

I remember seeing a teacher from her school on TV and she said those 3 girls were very bright, very streetwise and knew exactly what they were doing.

Javid revoked her British citizenship on the grounds it was “conducive to the public good”, after she had given an interview to the Times in which she said she did not regret spending four years living in the so-called caliphate and had told the BBC that the Manchester Arena terror attack was “a kind of retaliation”.

She was an adult when she gave that interview.

Legal aid is difficult to get nowadays except if you are charged with a crime and can’t afford representation. However it is available for human rights cases - unfortunately. Think of how much is paid out to dubious lawyers representing asylum seekers.

GrannyGravy13

How can we as a civilised country send foreign criminals back to their home countries but not accept our own back.

She has not been tried by any court, I totally accept that she could be a danger, but also I have to acknowledge that she doesn’t have to be in the U.K. in order to carry out/organise anything against us.

The point of the appeal was whether or not the removal of her British citizenship was lawful or unlawful.

Three Appeal Court judges decided unanimously that it was in fact lawful as she had Bangladeshi citizenship as well at that time.

Dame Sue Carr, the head of the court of appeal, said the judges unanimously dismissed Begum’s appeal: “It could be argued that the decision in Miss Begum’s case was harsh."
“It could also be argued that Miss Begum is the author of her own misfortune. But it is not for this court to agree or disagree with either point of view."
“Our only task is to assess whether the deprivation decision was unlawful. We have concluded it was not and the appeal is dismissed.”

Germanshepherdsmum

Legal aid - we do.

Germanshepherdsmum Years ago I remember my friend who was a legal secretary telling me that Legal Aid is almost impossible to get.

In recent years a friend was involved in a very serious car accident where she was left disabled and one of her 5 kids was with her and narrowly avoided being killed. It was entirely the other drivers fault. They were on a very low income, with 5 kids and her husband was just getting over a serious illness. She could not get any help with legal fees at all.

How does SB manage to get it?

1Whitewavemark and GrannyGravy13 - I agree. And really as she was a child when she left surely any charges would be relative to her age then?

I believe that's how we usually do things here..
I could be wrong.