How did we get BoJo as PM on Channel 4

MayBee70

There would be if anything about morality applied to either of them!

👏👏👏👏👏👏

There would be if anything about morality applied to either of them!

MayBee70

Dickens

My gripe against Johnson is that he transferred so much power to that malevolent and destructive force - Dominic Cummings - giving him universal power over government.

And I believe he did that because he had no appetite for the behind-the-scenes, nitty-gritty, tedium of 'getting Brexit done', preferring the accolade of his supporters and admirers as he traipsed around the country donning aprons, hard-hats - all the various apparel worn by workers in the businesses he visited, giving the impression that he was a 'man of the people'.

I don't believe his heart was in Brexit any more than it would have been in Remain, had that been the outcome. In my opinion - which is just that, an opinion - either outcome would serve as a vehicle to get Johnson where he wanted to be, into Number 10.

Brexit was always going to be a huge constitutional change to our way of life, Johnson bounced around the country grinning, jocular, energised and buoyant - because he was never going to be much involved with the dreary monotony of the fine-print of Brexit. He was king and he had a retinue of courtiers for that - including Cummings, the Chief of the Court.

I would not say he's the worst PM we've ever had, that crown goes to Liz Truss. Boris Johnson did not inflict Brexit on the nation - it had already decided - but Truss, out of the blue-yonder, made an economic decision that millions are now paying for.

He had no choice though because Cummings was his kingmaker. Who planned to depose him as soon as possible.

He had no choice though because Cummings was his kingmaker. Who planned to depose him as soon as possible.

There's a moral in there somewhere...

Dickens

My gripe against Johnson is that he transferred so much power to that malevolent and destructive force - Dominic Cummings - giving him universal power over government.

And I believe he did that because he had no appetite for the behind-the-scenes, nitty-gritty, tedium of 'getting Brexit done', preferring the accolade of his supporters and admirers as he traipsed around the country donning aprons, hard-hats - all the various apparel worn by workers in the businesses he visited, giving the impression that he was a 'man of the people'.

I don't believe his heart was in Brexit any more than it would have been in Remain, had that been the outcome. In my opinion - which is just that, an opinion - either outcome would serve as a vehicle to get Johnson where he wanted to be, into Number 10.

Brexit was always going to be a huge constitutional change to our way of life, Johnson bounced around the country grinning, jocular, energised and buoyant - because he was never going to be much involved with the dreary monotony of the fine-print of Brexit. He was king and he had a retinue of courtiers for that - including Cummings, the Chief of the Court.

I would not say he's the worst PM we've ever had, that crown goes to Liz Truss. Boris Johnson did not inflict Brexit on the nation - it had already decided - but Truss, out of the blue-yonder, made an economic decision that millions are now paying for.

He had no choice though because Cummings was his kingmaker. Who planned to depose him as soon as possible.

My gripe against Johnson is that he transferred so much power to that malevolent and destructive force - Dominic Cummings - giving him universal power over government.

And I believe he did that because he had no appetite for the behind-the-scenes, nitty-gritty, tedium of 'getting Brexit done', preferring the accolade of his supporters and admirers as he traipsed around the country donning aprons, hard-hats - all the various apparel worn by workers in the businesses he visited, giving the impression that he was a 'man of the people'.

I don't believe his heart was in Brexit any more than it would have been in Remain, had that been the outcome. In my opinion - which is just that, an opinion - either outcome would serve as a vehicle to get Johnson where he wanted to be, into Number 10.

Brexit was always going to be a huge constitutional change to our way of life, Johnson bounced around the country grinning, jocular, energised and buoyant - because he was never going to be much involved with the dreary monotony of the fine-print of Brexit. He was king and he had a retinue of courtiers for that - including Cummings, the Chief of the Court.

I would not say he's the worst PM we've ever had, that crown goes to Liz Truss. Boris Johnson did not inflict Brexit on the nation - it had already decided - but Truss, out of the blue-yonder, made an economic decision that millions are now paying for.

Yes, sadly, MaizieD I agree. Witness the decline of the WEA and Adult Education. It shocks me when I read posts on here with overtones of huge admiration for the "right sort of degree, university or school" and unpleasant comments about people who have become very successful in their chosen field despite their background.
I don't think that is how Britain became an industrial power and a centre for business and enterprise. It all seems very sad.

First sentence, I agree....

I about the earlier Labour movement for education and aspiration. But I think that Thatcher, the Wesleyan Methidist grocer's daughter captured the narrative for the tories and it has never really returned to Labour.

In fact, when you consider how Labour is criticised as being too middle class and divorced from its working class roots you really have to wonder if this early Labour history of education and aspiration has been forgotten

It reminded me more MaizieD, of the early pioneers of the Labour movement; the values of Fabians, the WEA and people like Arnold Toynbee and his work in the East End. Starmer's Oxford college was St Edmund's Hall which also has had a reputation for free-thinkers.
Self- improvement through education, hard work and trying to improve living conditions for everyone are more the values here I think.

“I don't think Starmer perfectly understood the narrative😆”

I imagine Corbyn thinks that Starmer understood it all too well MaizieD!

I'm expecting so much from Starmer next year and hope he’s not going to be led by Reluctant Reeves with her ideas on government spending!

Mamie

Joseann

And I would be just as understanding, and maybe sympathetic, about the effects Starmer's childhood had on him too. Different children cope in different ways, and this spills into their future lives.
Did Starmer go to prep school? Was he shunted across countries? Was he somewhat odd looking? I'd need to check.
Chaotic is a good Boris word!

None of those. Severely ill and physically disabled mother, father working all hours as toolmaker, four children in modest semi. State primary, 11+, grammar school, Leeds University, then Oxford. Took much of the weight of the household on his shoulders from an early age.

When you look at Starmer's background it reads very much like a tory narrative of how the working classes should strive to better themselves. We even have tory voters on this forum who tell similar stories about themselves.

Of course, the end point of the tory narrative is that people who have 'bettered' themselves in this way become tories because the tory party rewards hard work and aspiration.

I don't think Starmer perfectly understood the narrative😆

To Mamie. Thanks.

👍 sounds equally tough, in different ways.

MayBee70

Joseann

I've only had two opportunities to personally hear Boris in full flow, MaizieD. One memorable occasion was in December 2012 when we were invited to attend a carol concert in Trafalgar Square hosted by the Mayor for volunteers who had worked at The Olympics. He was certainly ad-libbing for over an hour, and was very grateful in his thank-yous. There were no scripted speeches because he didn't make it all about him.
If that all sounds a bit tacky to some, I don't care. He certainly made 9 or 10 thousand people, plus the performers, feel good.

Scripted or unscripted I think everything Johnson does is calculated. Every now and again the mask slips though and you see him for what he really is.

YOU think you see him for what he really is! Others see him quite differently.

Joseann

And I would be just as understanding, and maybe sympathetic, about the effects Starmer's childhood had on him too. Different children cope in different ways, and this spills into their future lives.
Did Starmer go to prep school? Was he shunted across countries? Was he somewhat odd looking? I'd need to check.
Chaotic is a good Boris word!

None of those. Severely ill and physically disabled mother, father working all hours as toolmaker, four children in modest semi. State primary, 11+, grammar school, Leeds University, then Oxford. Took much of the weight of the household on his shoulders from an early age.

And I would be just as understanding, and maybe sympathetic, about the effects Starmer's childhood had on him too. Different children cope in different ways, and this spills into their future lives.
Did Starmer go to prep school? Was he shunted across countries? Was he somewhat odd looking? I'd need to check.
Chaotic is a good Boris word!

It is an interesting comparison with Keir Starmer, where the Tom Baldwin biography shows how his difficult childhood shaped him in a very different way towards caution, diligence and a huge work ethic. I didn't see the programme, but the word that springs to mind from Sonia Purnell's book about Boris Johnson's life is "chaotic".

*through not though

I think the role played by impatience and petulance in bringing about Boris' downfall was to some extent what the tv programme tried to explore, though of course there was very little time in which to do so. A couple of those interviewed (??) said Boris would suddenly become irritated and just want the job done without properly thinking things though. He exhibited a sort of impulsiveness which probably came from how his brain is wired, or was learnt from how he coped with situations during his childhood. We cannot deny that it served him well in certain areas, but with time it became disastrous.

Cossy

There was zero criticism of him initially from the media nor his colleagues. Strange given that he was known to them initially as a journalist, the Mayor of London and as Foreign Secretary.

However, he was able to use his (alleged) “charm”, his facade of bumbling, yet good hearted loveable rogue!

It didn’t take long though did it for his veneer to wear off!

This, plus the belief of some people that he would ‘shape up’ if he became prime minister, which he didn’t of course.

For a long time I always liked Boris and was almost in awe of his 'intelligence' and perceived 'charisma'. However the scales fell from my eyes with all the shenanigans at no. 10 when he was Prime Minister. The trouble was he had no honour or integrity in holding the top job to which he was given. IMO the last of the PMs with the qualities to hold that position was Theresa May. If she had been PM through the covid years you could be certain there would have been absolutely no partying going on behind closed doors at no. 10. Yes she didn't possess dynamism and sadly made a mess of her PMship however she had honour and integrity in holding such high office. The last of the PMs to have those qualities sadly.

Joseann

I've only had two opportunities to personally hear Boris in full flow, MaizieD. One memorable occasion was in December 2012 when we were invited to attend a carol concert in Trafalgar Square hosted by the Mayor for volunteers who had worked at The Olympics. He was certainly ad-libbing for over an hour, and was very grateful in his thank-yous. There were no scripted speeches because he didn't make it all about him.
If that all sounds a bit tacky to some, I don't care. He certainly made 9 or 10 thousand people, plus the performers, feel good.

Scripted or unscripted I think everything Johnson does is calculated. Every now and again the mask slips though and you see him for what he really is.

I’m sure your son is a much better person all round maddyone.

Thank you Maizie, I think he is, but I’m his mother so I’m probably biased. I’m absolutely certain that my son doesn’t want to run the country though, thank goodness.

I’m sorry I missed your point Iam. My son is certainly not a show off, he’s confident, but with a certain reservation. Also extremely family minded, and thankfully hasn’t got nine children by assorted mothers.

Galaxy I’m sorry I have to disappoint you. My son has absolutely zero interest in becoming an MP, let alone PM, although he is interested in politics and doesn’t care for Boris Johnson. I would certainly give you all the gossip on Larry the cat if I could, but it’s never going to happen.

I've only had two opportunities to personally hear Boris in full flow, MaizieD. One memorable occasion was in December 2012 when we were invited to attend a carol concert in Trafalgar Square hosted by the Mayor for volunteers who had worked at The Olympics. He was certainly ad-libbing for over an hour, and was very grateful in his thank-yous. There were no scripted speeches because he didn't make it all about him.
If that all sounds a bit tacky to some, I don't care. He certainly made 9 or 10 thousand people, plus the performers, feel good.

How many of Johnson's 'spontaneous impromptu conversations' have you heard, Joseann?

I'm not being snippy, just wondering when people have had opportunities to hear such conversations.

I have to confess I rarely watch TV, so never saw him on HIGNFY, where many people seem to have been impressed by him (though that is scripted, albeit lightly). I have seen written reports of his 'conversations, though the writer may, in some cases be hostile to him. I have heard the phone conversation in which he agrees to help a friend get a journalist who'd annoyed him lightly 'done over' (nothing extreme like a broken leg...)

Then I've seen him being interviewed in select committees and at the covid inquiry, where he has always seemed to be semi articulate.