Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

(Katie - here is an article accusing CNN of being pro-Israel bias - by CNN employees!
www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-israel-bias)

My heart sinks when you say, "Hamas is Palestine" - because it is - well to me - equivalent to saying - all Israeli's are supporters of the current government actions. And they are not,

and neither do all Palestinians support Hamas.

and its this kind of pushing people into extreme and opposite camps that worsens attempts to find middle ground and peace.

Foxie
I’m not telling you what to believe I’m just posing the question.
However you do seem to believe most of the pro Hamas
reports.

Hamas is Palestine

Katie59 I'm not telling you what to believe, just posing the question. I don't always believe Hamas or the Israeli govt, I do however, feel more inclined to believe the investigative work done by outside agencies like the BBC or CNN.
CNN is left leaning liberal (which is pretty middle road in UK terms) but that doesn't mean they are dishonest and the IDF explanation looked flakey from the start. Believe what you want but at least consider different alternatives!

CNN is left of centre so backs Biden

foxie48

edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/04/08/gaza-aid-truck-investigation-polglase-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

Can you really trust the Israeli govt to tell the truth about what is happening in Gaza? This investigation by CNN into the loss of life when delivering aid suggests, no, we can't. I'm not surprised many Americans are unhappy about supplying arms to Israel

Can you really trust what Hamas is saying about Gaza.

As for CNN who are they backing in the election.

You can’t believe anything so much is propaganda.

Hard to work it all out. This article today on I player is entitled "Can US pressure deliver Israel-Hamas truce in Gaza?"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68774205

does identify lots of the difference forces at work in the region.

It's getting so that we probably don't know a lot of behind the scenes diplomacy (if you can call it that) When the CIA gets involved. I cant see the US supporting an operation in Rafah
" virtually everyone outside Israel is against an offensive in the city, where about 1.5 million Palestinians are sheltering in tents, improvised shelters and overcrowded camps, over concerns of the catastrophic impact it could have on civilians."

edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/04/08/gaza-aid-truck-investigation-polglase-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

Can you really trust the Israeli govt to tell the truth about what is happening in Gaza? This investigation by CNN into the loss of life when delivering aid suggests, no, we can't. I'm not surprised many Americans are unhappy about supplying arms to Israel

Wyllow3 thanks for that, I had seen it but not looked at the Gallop poll. That is really interesting. It makes me wonder to what extent it might affect voting in the swing states and as the poll was done in November 2023 I think the numbers will have changed and fewer Americans are supportive of giving arms to Israel.

Haven't seen any suggestions of laying down arms by Israel in any proposed negotiations for their own defence.

foxie, re the supply of aid/military arms and the US, this (quite short) article gives details
www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Candelle No one has suggested that Israel must "lay down it's arms" but the atrocities committed by Hamas do not give Israel the right to commit it's own humanitarian crimes. It would seem that enough countries, including those who have been Israel's greatest supporters, think that Israel have crossed the line. Netanyahu is going to have to make a decision about which way to go and ATM he's playing for time. He can either continue with the wishes of his right wing extremists and risk losing military aid and support or he can step back and ensure that the people of Gaza are protected and have enough to eat.

Disgusting propaganda?

Candelle

Israel (roughly the size of Wales) is trying to stay alive, surrounded by countries who wish its demise (and with all the disgusting propaganda, much of the world agrees).

If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no war.

If Israel lays down its arms, there will be no Israel.

That must be about the 100th time I've read that! Is there some kind of handbook with quotes?

PS. Iranians, who are behind much of the support for Hamas, aren't Arabs.

Israel (roughly the size of Wales) is trying to stay alive, surrounded by countries who wish its demise (and with all the disgusting propaganda, much of the world agrees).

If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no war.

If Israel lays down its arms, there will be no Israel.

Israel may be the "occupying power" but it is kept there by the military aid it receives and the willingness of countries to supply it with weapons. I think it's impossible to talk about the future of Israel and Gaza without taking into the account what the US wants as the bottom line is Israel can't afford to lose that support or the support of those European countries like Germany and Italy who sell weapons to Israel. France is threatening sanctions and Nancy Pelosi has joined others in the white House who want the US to cease giving Israel weapons. This is serious stuff for Netanyahu and surely not to be ignored?

The UK government's official policy is still a Two State Solution. Government site:

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-uk-will-work-with-our-partners-towards-a-two-state-solution-uk-statement-at-the-un-fourth-committee#:~:text=Thank%20you%20Chair.,only%20viable%20long%20term%20solution.

It’s not a matter of being neutral Israel IS the “occupying power” whether we like it or not, it is they that have to provide security for the whole of Israel.
As part of that, settlement of Palestinian Land has got to be stopped and move towards equality for them.
A two state solution would just provide a base where terrorists could attack Israel. Hamas of course say they want a single state solution with them in charge, I’m not expecting Israel to allow that under any circumstances.

A short note to add to Growstuff's. post above.

"There's no point occupying Gaza and the West Bank if the population wages a permanent guerilla war from within".

After the 6 day war in 1967 Israel annexed Gaza and the West Bank illegally (internationally speaking). Israel started building settlements in those areas and started a long policy of controlling Palestinian Access within those areas. This is hardly a secret or news, but is it surprising that resistance started growing and has reached the point it has?

Peace attempts have concentrated on cease fires and a two state solution but the sticking point has been and remains the fact that areas were illegally annexed.

In the light of this Katie just pondering on what you say, " it's got to be some form of devolution with Israel closely supervising security". Under the circumstances it needs an international approach to building a two state solution. Israel "supervising" evolution can never be seen as "neutral".

“There's no point occupying Gaza and the West Bank if the population wages a permanent guerilla war from within.”

On the other hand they allowed Gaza to conduct its own affairs and Hamas took over and declared war on Israel, no, its got to be some form of devolution with Israel closely supervising security. Any arrangement that allows arms to be built up to start a war will just end up where we are now in 20 yrs time.

Iraq war, 2003

Labours 3rd consecutive win 2005

Anniebach

Starmer’s home is being attacked, blocking the front path are
little shoes and wellingtons. He just has to stand up in the Commons and sob his support for Hamas

No one wants him to support Hamas. They do want him to stand up and oppose the government, which is of course the purpose of his party. They want the supply of arms to Israel and our involvement with the Israeli military to stop. It's a reasonable Labour policy. Going to war lost Blair followers. This war will see Starmer losing votes.

Katie59

Anniebach

The photograph of a child fleeing during the Vietnam war was posted here, how it affect the world. Hamas certainly got the world supporting them they have played the child card from the start of the war.

growstuff seems some understand more than you.

Yes the news from Vietnam did influence world opinion but did not affect the decision for the US to withdraw, they were comprehensively loosing the fighting.
Gaza we all are shocked by civilian suffering but Israel is winning the war and will regain control of Gaza, then will need to maintain security to prevent resurgence of terrorism.

All of the surrounding countries have the same problem and maintain large armies to control terrorists sponsored by Iran so Israel will be no different.

Exactly! There is no doubt that Israel will "win" the war, but keeping the peace will be a different matter. Israel is going to have to deal with even more hostility from four million Palestinians and surrounding states, including Lebanon (which rarely even gets a mention). It's a small country, but is going to have to dedicate a high percentage of its wealth and population to defence. Apparently, the number of young people being conscripted is already affecting the country's productivity.

Not only that, but Israel has lost the moral high ground with its approach. The country is going to have to work hard to re-establish relationships with some of its allies. Before the Hamas attack and subsequent invasion, there were signs of an agreement with Saudi Arabia, which now seems to have been scuppered. There's no point occupying Gaza and the West Bank if the population wages a permanent guerilla war from within.

Anniebach

The photograph of a child fleeing during the Vietnam war was posted here, how it affect the world. Hamas certainly got the world supporting them they have played the child card from the start of the war.

growstuff seems some understand more than you.

How rude! What do you think I don't understand?

I read recently that the US lost the war in Vietnam because the other side didn't have to win. That is a very clever assessment of why superior weapons often don't mean victory. I think that's also true of what is happening in Gaza. The IDF is killing lots of people, destroying the infrastructure of Gaza but are they winning? I don't think so.
Netanyahu is apparently hanging on to his coalition government by his fingertips, the issue of the Haredi avoiding service in the IDF is a real problem for him. It's the ultra Orthodox particularly the settlers who benefit most from having Smotrich and Ben-Givr in Government but it's the more secular Jews who do the fighting. Meanwhile Smotrich and B-G are threatening to leave the coalition if the IDF don't go into Rafah. Israeli politics are very fragile ATM

Anniebach

The photograph of a child fleeing during the Vietnam war was posted here, how it affect the world. Hamas certainly got the world supporting them they have played the child card from the start of the war.

growstuff seems some understand more than you.

Yes the news from Vietnam did influence world opinion but did not affect the decision for the US to withdraw, they were comprehensively loosing the fighting.
Gaza we all are shocked by civilian suffering but Israel is winning the war and will regain control of Gaza, then will need to maintain security to prevent resurgence of terrorism.

All of the surrounding countries have the same problem and maintain large armies to control terrorists sponsored by Iran so Israel will be no different.

Starmer’s home is being attacked, blocking the front path are
little shoes and wellingtons. He just has to stand up in the Commons and sob his support for Hamas