Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

Katie59

“The thing is, that Hamas are, in the main, Palestinians.”

If this is true then it is a Palestinian Rebellion, rather than outside influences.

Sorry but that is incorrect! See my post above to Candelle.

"Foxie, you are muddying the water and playing semantics.
Of course I understand that it is Hamas not the Palestinians who are fighting Israel. The thing is, that Hamas are, in the main, Palestinians. "

However, it remains a fact that not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. I do not disagree that Hamas members are Palestinian, they are the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood but you are totally incorrect to say that it is the Palestinians who are fighting Israel, it isn't, it is a terrorist group called Hamas which is a subset but not the whole of the Palestinian people. fwiw nearly as many Gazans voted for Fatah in 2006. Fatah is also a Palestinian organisation but it is totally opposed to Hamas.

maddyone

^It is essential that humanitarian workers are protected ^

Indeed. So why dismiss the horrendous murder of David Haines because he was killed by a terrorist group? It’s apparently to be expected if the murderers are terrorists but not in the middle of a dangerous war situation.

I have not dismissed it, I have said it was a dreadful act committed by terrorists. What I have pointed out that it is different. Terrorist groups do not abide by the Geneva convention and do not agree to protect those taking part in humanitarian work. Israel is supposed to be protecting aid workers. Surely you can see the difference

“The thing is, that Hamas are, in the main, Palestinians.”

If this is true then it is a Palestinian Rebellion, rather than outside influences.

To Foxie48. You wrote:
Candelle asks "I have in the past asked questions which are not answered: why is there so much support for Palestine, an aggressor, whilst meanwhile 750,00 deaths have occurred in Syria? Answers, anyone"
Unfortunately, you seem to completely misunderstand the situation. Palestine is not the aggressor, the Palestinian people are not the aggressors, it is a terrorist group called Hamas. I wonder if this says something about you and your beliefs? Many of the posts that I have seen are critical of the current Israeli PM, the government he has around him to keep him in power and the way the war in Gaza is being conducted. I haven't seen any anti semitic posts, certainly seen posts that are critical of Zionist Israelis but lots of Jews are critical of them too. This is a thread about Israel/Gaza if you want to talk about Syria, please start a thread about that. There are so many places in the world that deserve our attention but in most cases it does not involve a country supported with billions of dollars worth of arms by the US and the UK and I think that this makes a difference as does the fact that we consider Israel a "civilised" country which we expect to "play by the rules of war".

Foxie, you are muddying the water and playing semantics.
Of course I understand that it is Hamas not the Palestinians who are fighting Israel. The thing is, that Hamas are, in the main, Palestinians.

My reference (which I believe you understood full well but I will try to explain it more simply) is that there are weekly marches in London in support of Palestine.

There have been no weekly marches in London for Syria, yet Syria has had 75,000 deaths but where are the protestors for them? Or Somalia. Or Yemen? What is the difference? All are Islamic countries. The only possible inference is that Israel, a Jewish country is involved in Palestine.

It is essential that humanitarian workers are protected

Indeed. So why dismiss the horrendous murder of David Haines because he was killed by a terrorist group? It’s apparently to be expected if the murderers are terrorists but not in the middle of a dangerous war situation.

The BBC is not impartial. It cannot accept that HAMAS is a proscribed terrorist group. That is despite our government and countless other governments accepting that.

Tom Hurndall was a volunteer for International Solidarity
Movement,

I am totally appalled by the lack of empathy shown. It's unusual for aid workers, journalists, doctors etc to be killed by the very people who should be protecting them but in Gaza it seems to be common practice and in some people's eyes, totally acceptable.
"It is essential that humanitarian workers are protected and able to carry out their work. We have called on Israel to immediately investigate and provide a full, transparent explanation of what happened.” David Cameron

To Foxie 48. You wrote:
No, my question does not make any assumption of whether the deaths are "deliberate" or not. Under the Geneva Convention, rules of war, it requires Israel to "Protect all civilians, including those in occupied territory." The key word is "protect" when over 30k people have been killed and over 75k have been wounded, including a very high percentage of women and children, it is impossible to believe that the civilian population is being protected.
Another of the four rules of war is to "Treat prisoners of war with humanity." IDF soldiers have posted on the internet thousands of videos showing prisoners, the BBC has verified some of them and they are of Palestinian prisoners. See the link below.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68249962
Another of the rules of war is to "Protect the sick, wounded, medical and religious personnel during conflict" There has been lots of evidence that they have not done this, the damage done to the medical infrastructure of Gaza is obvious, lots of pictures in the media but also Christians in the Holy Family Church situated in north Gaza have been killed, 2 women by IDF snipers, 19 by military action and 11 because of a lack of medical care. Link to Catholic Herald
catholicherald.co.uk/thirty-christians-killed-in-israels-war-with-hamas-say-church-sources/

My response is that this is a war. How can the sick be protected when the war was brought to their bedsides by Hamas? The al Shifa hospital was nothing but a Hamas command centre and once discovered had to be dealt with. Hamas did not care about the patients, just as they have no thought for their people.

How can civilians be protected when Hamas brought the war in to their midst, in housing complexes and apartment blocks? It is now accepted that this is true so please advise how people could be protected?

As to anything being BBC verified, well that's a non sequitur! The BBC is and has not been impartial.

I remember a brave young British man Tom Hurndell a photojournalist.
He just had a camera and was shot by IDF in Gaza 21 years ago.

Frank Gardner was shot by al-Qaida gunmen, David Haines was taken hostage, tortured and beheaded by ISIS, both dreadful acts by terrorist groups. IDF is not a terrorist group, they should be protecting aid workers and these deaths are potentially a war crime. At least the governments of those who were killed take a more serious view of the matter.

"The Australian foreign minister, Penny Wong, said the death of any aid worker was “outrageous and unacceptable” and said the government was seeking “a thorough and expeditious review” as well as “full accountability for these deaths” from the Israeli government."

"The Polish foreign ministry expressed its condolences to the family of the Polish volunteer who was killed, adding: “Poland does not agree to the lack of compliance with international humanitarian law and the protection of civilians, including humanitarian workers.”

Spain’s prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, said he was appalled by the deaths and called on the Israeli government to “clarify the circumstances of this brutal attack as soon as possible”.

www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-aid-convoy-strike-what-happened-and-who-were-the-victims

The people who died yesterday worked for World Kitchen and had just finished unloading tons of aid from the ship bringing food for the starving civilians.
They had given their coordinates and details to the IDF to ensure their safety, yet were still murdered. Together with tens of thousands of other innocents.

On Radio 4 this morning a spokesman for UNICEF James Elder describes the killing of the World Central Kitchen workers as “utterly horrifying” and an “immense tragedy”.
This has been one of the most dangerous places in living memory to operate, Gaza is breaking too many bleak records - number of children killed, number of people facing catastrophic hunger, record displacement, worst devastation to homes in living memory and largest number of United Nations colleagues killed since it was created”.
Says it all really.

It has been reported that the IDF were informed about the aid workers and their position and they were well marked.

But not shot by Jews, allegedly

maddyone

All too often, sadly, aid workers are killed when they enter dangerous war zones. Remember David Haines who was beheaded by ISIS in Syria? Horrendous for the victims and their families. They were simply trying to help. Nowhere is safe in a war zone. Many journalists get killed or injured in war zones too.

Photographers and camera people too put their lives at risk.

Frank Gardner was shot six times and his cameraman Simon Cumbers was killed.

Thousands of journalists have been killed over the years, trying to bring news of wars and conflicts to the wider world. ☹

I've long put my mind - with no good result -to what long term solutions there could be.

Complicated by the fact there are international players involved, international interests at stake here.

I've always felt that there should be a Palestinian State, but that then immediately gives rise to ?? about what the borders should be - Gaza and the West Bank will always be contested.

All too often, sadly, aid workers are killed when they enter dangerous war zones. Remember David Haines who was beheaded by ISIS in Syria? Horrendous for the victims and their families. They were simply trying to help. Nowhere is safe in a war zone. Many journalists get killed or injured in war zones too.

International aid workers have been killed despite them giving the IDF information and co-ordinates of their travel plans. No-one is safe in Gaza. This is why Netanyahu's statements that the IDF do everything they can to protect civilians rings hollow. Aid workers, if they are Palestinian, are just collateral damage but non Palestinian ones are a tragic incident. It reminded me of this tragic incident: "6-year-old Gaza girl was found dead days after pleading for rescue from Israeli fire A girl in Gaza's pleas for help were heard around the world, but over the weekend the Palestinian Red Crescent confirmed the child was killed along with an ambulance crew that tried to rescue her."

It is a fact though that the Nakba which is relevant to the current conflict is not taught in Israeli schools and celebrating Nakba Day is an offence which organisations can be fined for.
The present situation is part of the "ongoing nakba"
A central aspect of the ongoing Nakba is the "systematic, ongoing and arbitrary forced displacement of Palestinians",[12] including what has been described as the ghettoization of the Palestinian population through transfers, land confiscation and the concentration and confinement "of as many as possible of those who remain in the smallest possible areas of land".[12] One example is Israel's creation of seven "concentration towns" for Palestinian Negev Bedouins, which sat alongside a policy of ruling 45 other communities (as of 2008) illegal and the pressuring of their residents (sometime violently) to move to the concentration towns

Callistemon21

foxie48

maddyone

petra they maybe as you describe, but I prefer the word uneducated. It has been established that many of the marchers on the pro Palestinian protests have never heard of the Holocaust. Unbelievable but true. GCSE History covers history of the last century, and that includes the Holocaust. If a person didn’t sit GCSE History, and has little interest or motivation to find out, and spends their holidays on a beach in Spain, rather than visiting Berlin, Amsterdam, or other countries in Eastern Europe, or has never visited Auschwitz or any one of many concentration camp sites, how would they know?

The Holocaust is the only compulsory topic in the history curriculum and is taught in KS3 usually to 13-14 year olds. This has been the case since 1991.

Only in England, foxie48

In Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland it is and was not compulsory.

I do not remember my DC learning about this and I am sure my DGC have not either.

True , it should be but many schools in Scotland and Wales do cover it according to the Holocaust foundation. Wales has given £320K to fund visits by Welsh pupils to Poland to learn about the holocaust.

foxie48

maddyone

petra they maybe as you describe, but I prefer the word uneducated. It has been established that many of the marchers on the pro Palestinian protests have never heard of the Holocaust. Unbelievable but true. GCSE History covers history of the last century, and that includes the Holocaust. If a person didn’t sit GCSE History, and has little interest or motivation to find out, and spends their holidays on a beach in Spain, rather than visiting Berlin, Amsterdam, or other countries in Eastern Europe, or has never visited Auschwitz or any one of many concentration camp sites, how would they know?

The Holocaust is the only compulsory topic in the history curriculum and is taught in KS3 usually to 13-14 year olds. This has been the case since 1991.

Only in England, foxie48

In Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland it is and was not compulsory.

I do not remember my DC learning about this and I am sure my DGC have not either.

There have been a few antisemitic posts, not necessarily on this thread, although there was one I think, but they were deleted by HQ.

Candelle asks "I have in the past asked questions which are not answered: why is there so much support for Palestine, an aggressor, whilst meanwhile 750,00 deaths have occurred in Syria? Answers, anyone"

Unfortunately, you seem to completely misunderstand the situation. Palestine is not the aggressor, the Palestinian people are not the aggressors, it is a terrorist group called Hamas. I wonder if this says something about you and your beliefs? Many of the posts that I have seen are critical of the current Israeli PM, the government he has around him to keep him in power and the way the war in Gaza is being conducted. I haven't seen any anti semitic posts, certainly seen posts that are critical of Zionist Israelis but lots of Jews are critical of them too. This is a thread about Israel/Gaza if you want to talk about Syria, please start a thread about that. There are so many places in the world that deserve our attention but in most cases it does not involve a country supported with billions of dollars worth of arms by the US and the UK and I think that this makes a difference as does the fact that we consider Israel a "civilised" country which we expect to "play by the rules of war".

Or the police ignored the placard carriers,