Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

Katie59

Jaberwok

What is strange is that no other Arab country has supported Gaza with military aid, that is, boots on the ground, air power. Jordan has , in conjunction with the UK flown in aid, but nothing to actually physically help another Arab country under attack. Why the hesitation?

They have major problem controlling their own extremists, all have military domination of government for that reason. Even Turkey the most democratic in the region has a very large army to control extremists.

Turkey's military strength is more related to its position in NATO and the necessity to maintain a strong military presence on its borders.

Jaberwok

What is strange is that no other Arab country has supported Gaza with military aid, that is, boots on the ground, air power. Jordan has , in conjunction with the UK flown in aid, but nothing to actually physically help another Arab country under attack. Why the hesitation?

Because Israel is massively supported by the US. The Arab countries not currently in a state of crisis have ties with that country and would not want to go to war with them. Some of the other countries are in turmoil.
Which country would you expect to provide support?

An experienced researcher who has worked in many areas of conflict looking at deaths regards the MOH in Gaza as an efficient organisation and the figures as credible
time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
For anyone who is dismissing the death toll. People have ID numbers and this is recorded and written on the plastic the body is wrapped in.
Of course there are also unidentified bodies being buried in mass graves. They are photographed, numbered and recorded.
www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/22/burying-the-bodies-of-unidentified-victims-of-israels-war-on-gaza

And there will be people who are just missing.

Jaberwok

What is strange is that no other Arab country has supported Gaza with military aid, that is, boots on the ground, air power. Jordan has , in conjunction with the UK flown in aid, but nothing to actually physically help another Arab country under attack. Why the hesitation?

They have major problem controlling their own extremists, all have military domination of government for that reason. Even Turkey the most democratic in the region has a very large army to control extremists.

What is strange is that no other Arab country has supported Gaza with military aid, that is, boots on the ground, air power. Jordan has , in conjunction with the UK flown in aid, but nothing to actually physically help another Arab country under attack. Why the hesitation?

Meet the wrong type of Jew, Israel doesn’t want you to know exists.
YouTube.

Hamas has tried very successfully to manipulate international opinion in its favour, whether its accurate is immaterial. It’s very clear that thousands of civilians have died and the destruction is obvious, it’s also obvious that Israel ignores it all.

Further to the above, there was a piece in the Washington Post yesterday that suggests the figures are too low as they are finding decomposed bodies in the rubble of building and Palestinians are unable to contact members of their family who have not been reported as dead. If they are not dead, then it is thought they might have been detained by the IDF but they just don't know.

It's using the piece by Abraham Wyner that was featured in the article that P60 gave a link to in the Jewish Chronicle.

In any conflict both sides will give out misinformation to help their respective causes and it is difficult or impossible to check if there is no neutral access to the facts. Gaza is a case in point. And anyone challenging veracity is liable to be smeared.

The Telegraph today carries an article summarising statistical findings that the reported civilian deaths are likely to be fabricated by Hamas. The underlying research paper is at www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

Essentially it shows, based on UN data, that the casualty figures show a suspiciously regular increase.

I make no comment but suggest it may be worth reading at least. Obviously it is published in a US Jewish journal but that does not automatically cast doubt on the UN data or the statistical methodology. It would be interesting to hear from any GN statisticians about this.

It's an opinion piece written by Bret Stephens who is an American Jew. No doubt written because of Schumer's speech condemning Netanyahu. Sorry can't read it as it's behind a paywall.

No-one can argue that the New York Times is pro-Israel, yet this article was published there the other day:
www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/opinion/israel-hamas-war-military.html?smid=url-share

Wyllow3

Sorry, posted before ending:

People turned to Hamas not just towards armed conflict, but Hamas did a great deal of work in terms of raising help for those Palestinians in camps for years. This relief work has been international and going on quietly for years and of course the relief work has been from groups from many different backgrounds internationally.

I expect many of us old enough to remember the end of WW2 and the appalling horrors of the concentration camps feel as my family did that people of Jewish origin needed safe haven. It was with alarm (and demonstrations, and political discussion and action) that after 1967 some people in Israel started the process in Gaza and the West Bank that has led to the current situation.

Hamas did indeed help the Palestinians improve their life while using it as a cover for stockpiling weapons forthe attack on Israel planned from the start.
It was all for nothing because Israel did not lie down and let Hamas launch rockets and slaughter festival goers they struck back, which was entirely predictable it’s exactly what they have always done.

Hamas relied on international pressure to stop Israel invading Gaza and over estimated their own fighting ability.
They failed!.

"Israel is an apartheid country where Palestinians are mistreated and some people even try to dismiss their very existence."

Glorianny - this is nonsense! Palestinians are not Israelis. How is that even a relevant comment??
Arab Israelis have equal rights and there is no apartheid in Israel.
Your comment simply shows a lack of understanding of the situation.

Borders were fluid because most of the whole are were colonially governed by Western Powers.

In 1917, in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine.

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognised the new nation on the same day.

However as I said above, no equivalent Palestinian State was recognised, leaving the situation open to develop in the way it has. As you point out, Glorianny, under colonial occupation until the late 1940's borders were fluid in the area.

(Look at the genocide that happened when the British drew the borders between India and Pakistan when more than fifteen million people had been uprooted, and between one and two million were dead. (wiki).)

LinFreed

glorianny I think you’ll find being a 'Palestinian' is a construct from the 1970s to explain those Arabs who were from TransJordan etc. In 1948 the UN declared Israeli independence & Palestine was split into Arabic and Jewish countries

Jews living in British Mandate Palestine pre 1948, were Palestinians as much as the other people living there, including Druze, Bedouin and Arabs

It's interesting that Arab Israelis and black African Jews are in the IDF defending their country.

Ah this excuse raised by people who try to minimise the issue and pretend every thing in the area was chaos until the state of Israel was founded.
The first use of the word Palestina was by the romans who created three Palestinian states, Palestina Prima, Palestina Secundo and Palestina Tertia.
From 1840 onward, "Palestine" was used to describe a region that extended in the north–south direction typically from Rafah (south-east of Gaza) to the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea, and the eastern boundary was where the Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east of Amman.
The boundaries were not clearly marked but the area was Palestine.
And Christian, Druse and Jews lived peacefully within the region.
And yes Jews were living there peacefully . They continued to do so and huge numbers immigrated there in the 1930s. The creation of the State of Israel was made with no consultation with any of the people living there. However that was not the real problem. The Israel which now exists was not the Israel designated by the UN. In 1948 Israel expanded after a war taking 77% of the designated Palestinian territory.
They then cleared that area of Palestinians in the Nakba.

The plight of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank have been over looked with the enormity of the death toll in Gaza. But they are dying. Between 7 October and 31 December 2023, 299 Palestinians were killed, marking a 50% increase compared to the first nine months of the year. At least 61 further Palestinians, including 13 children, have been killed so far in 2024 as of 29 January.

Israel is an apartheid country where Palestinians are mistreated and some people even try to dismiss their very existence.

Sorry, posted before ending:

People turned to Hamas not just towards armed conflict, but Hamas did a great deal of work in terms of raising help for those Palestinians in camps for years. This relief work has been international and going on quietly for years and of course the relief work has been from groups from many different backgrounds internationally.

I expect many of us old enough to remember the end of WW2 and the appalling horrors of the concentration camps feel as my family did that people of Jewish origin needed safe haven. It was with alarm (and demonstrations, and political discussion and action) that after 1967 some people in Israel started the process in Gaza and the West Bank that has led to the current situation.

LinFreed has mentioned something significant - at the time Israel was established, there was no Palestinian State set up as such. (Very complex colonial legacies post WW2) Israel, amongst other countries, does not recognise Palestine as a State. Therefore....recognition of an entity to negotiate with on borders, even definition of borders. this has hindered peace attempts since the first incursions into Gaza and the West Bank since 1967.

And very complicated: many original members of Hamas were not armed and planning what is now happening, but Hamas leaders were actually elected in civil elections following the end of the PLO. But when it came to the situation of thousands in refugee camps, 80% unemployment, lack of access to food , water and other basic necessities, for years and years,

it is heartbreakingly understandable the present situation is as it is.

Secondly, I do not support terrorism in anyway, but in the vacuum left after the PLO under Yasser Arafat failed to meet the needs of the Palestinians against the incursions of some parts of the Israeli leaderships,

glorianny I think you’ll find being a 'Palestinian' is a construct from the 1970s to explain those Arabs who were from TransJordan etc. In 1948 the UN declared Israeli independence & Palestine was split into Arabic and Jewish countries

Jews living in British Mandate Palestine pre 1948, were Palestinians as much as the other people living there, including Druze, Bedouin and Arabs

It's interesting that Arab Israelis and black African Jews are in the IDF defending their country.

maddyone

My behaviour? I don’t understand.

Using "you" in a general sense, absolutely right for Israel to defend itself, just like we had to defend ourselves against the IRA, but it has to be done within the law whilst protecting civilians. One can't use the behavior of the terrorists to justify one's own actions if one is acting outside the law.

AGAA4

Killing can never be justified whether it's done by the IRA, Hamas, Israel or anyone else. Wars inevitably lead to what I believe is mass murder.
I just wish Israel and Hamas would stop this carnage.

This! Yes, completely agree

Oreo

I can believe it GrannyGravy13 there aren’t many ‘innocent’
Gazans, most support hamas.

Children?? And I’m sure many Palestinians just want to live peacefully in what’s left of THEIR country!

maddyone

Katie
The wars you mention are simply not important enough in the minds of many folk. Partly that is because the media show little to no interest in them, and rarely report from those areas of conflict.
We do get reports from Ukraine, but not daily, as in the case of Israel. I have frequently mentioned the lack of interest in Ukraine on these threads about Israel, in the way of comparing the level of interest. Ukraine generated huge interest and compassion at first, but now it has tapered off, even though the Ukrainian war is the one which threatens Europe far more than the Israeli war. The only thing I can put it down to is unconscious antisemitism. Our media may well be antisemitic. It would be denied of course, but denial doesn’t mean it isn’t so. We have had vast coverage of Israel since last October and we have much coverage of the pro Palestinian marches. There have been some marches drawing attention to the antisemitism in the country, but often they’re not covered. Last week a man carrying a banner saying Hamas is terrorist was arrested for assault! Then he was de arrested because he committed no assault. How could this happen?
The world is anti semantic. It always has been and probably always will be. That is why there is no interest in other wars. It’s really not the fault of the people, it comes down to the media’s preferences.

But the Ukraine war has received huge support from the western powers. And they have not supported Russia If as you are trying to suggest there is widespread anti semitism then the western powers should be supporting Gaza and the Palestinian people against the aggressor Israel. But they are not. In fact no one is actually supporting the Palestinian people. They remain just the victims.

The Ukraine war has fewer civilian fatalities and more military personnel killed. In 2 years of war 10,000 civilians died in Ukraine. In 6 months 30,000 have died in Gaza. If the conflict should continue how many will we be looking at after 2 years?

This is not a war. It is the deliberate destruction of Palestinian people. There is nothing anti-semitic about it. And linking the actions of the Israeli government with Judaism is insulting to all those Jews who oppose the actions of Israel. In fact that is real anti semitism.

I agree AGA44.
It needs to stop, but both sides need to stop simultaneously.

Killing can never be justified whether it's done by the IRA, Hamas, Israel or anyone else. Wars inevitably lead to what I believe is mass murder.
I just wish Israel and Hamas would stop this carnage.