Prayer ban at Katharine Birbalsingh’s school is lawful, High Court rules .

Joseann, I missed that post so apologies from me for misunderstanding

The younger daughter may also be influenced by her mother, older sister and the imam who lives locally and was interviewed on every radio news I heard yesterday

From what I’ve read, the headteacher might not have been my choice. However, parents can be under no illusion about her ethos, school culture etc. my simple view is, get a sought after place for your child and accept school rules and belief system. Otherwise it sounds like me accepting a highly sought after place at our C of E high school, then insisting my children were excused from Assembly or the GCSE RE exam

Perhaps, Iam64, and if so apologies for misunderstanding.
It was just that the older sister at the school had already (and rightly so) been referred to as a vexatious litigant upthread. The younger daughter might be a totally different child.

Joseann, I read Kati50’s comment as applying to the mother

Katie59

Iam64

Also, many of the pupils at this school will have been born here, so are British. Our society is changing and compromise is needed by all of us.
Ive read more about the background to this court hearing. I’m relieved the Judge supported the school. I’ve no respect for the mother in the case who says she’ll send her younger daughter there and bring another court challenge to the rules

She will likely become a vexatious ligitant then.

I would prefer not to damn a young child before she starts that school.

TinSoldier

This comment piece from teacher Nadeine Asbali decribes what is happening much more articulately than I can.

Michaela school will keep its prayer ban – but as a Muslim teacher I know it doesn’t have to be this way.

… it’s worth interrogating why schools like Michaela view their role as being so aggressively secular in the first place.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

My own thoughts:

Birbalsingh is on record saying: "I take away their liberty. For integration to happen, it has to be forced. Pupils will sing “God Save the King”, they will sing “Jerusalem”, they will sing “I Vow to Thee My Country."

Forced integration. No place for republicanism, no time for the observance of faith other than that which is based in Christian liturgy, no place for anything other than British patrotism.

That isn’t inclusive and is certainly not secular.

Birbalsingh claims: There’s a Santa, there’s a Christmas tree, but these are all very secular things. We would never have a nativity play, for instance, we don’t talk about Jesus.

Santa is grounded in the story of Saint Nicholas. A Christmas tree - it’s in the name - a mass for Christ. So much for we don’t “talk” about Jesus unless she is being pedantic and saying that pupils are only singing about Jesus.

Blake’s Jerusalem (although he never called it that) derives from his personal mythology which was based on the Bible. His own illuminated manuscript describes The Sublime of the Bible. The words that immediately preface the verse we know as Jerusalem read …^ our own imaginations - those worlds of eternity in which we shall live forever in Jesus our Lord^. Those that follow the verse are … Would to God that all the Lord’s people were Prophets. Numbers XI.

The holy lamb of God is from from John 1:29. The first lines of Blake’s verse - And did those feet in ancient times … is a reference to the legend that Jesus travelled to England with Joseph of Arimathea - the Jewish man who buried Jesus after the crucifixion. Building Jerusaleum in England’s green and pleasant land draws on Revelations 21:9 where Jesus descends from heaven to establish a New Jerusalem on earth.

The only Muslim prayer that falls within school hours is Zohor. Ideally, it is said between noon and 4:00 pm and can takes as little as five minutes. A Muslim can pray anywhere so long as it is clean and there are facilities for wudu (cleansing). In the working world, breaking for Zohor isn’t always practical but there is a workaround. Qada means fulfilling a duty that was missed due to circumstances. That includes saying prayers that cannot be said at the designated time.

If the school was truly secular then that’s how a pupil could makes up for that missed prayer but Michaela School isn’t secular whatever Birbalsingh claims. She could easily accommodate a space for Zohor as many secular buildings do but is goes against her authoritarianism, her forced integration.

Her school may achieve good exam results what price education if it is delivered under one woman’s totalitarian regime?

Absolutely agree with you. I've just read a lot about the school and it reminds me of those films you see about North Korea. "Forced" anything is out of place in a school, or anywhere in my opinion. You don't 'train' children in a Boot Camp like KB does in year 7. You 'teach' them to be responsible citizens. At best this school is an exam factory.

maddyone

If it was Cherie Blair’s Chambers that took it on, I’m surprised it only cost £150,000!

There could be other forces financially supporting the mother 🤷‍♀️ just saying 😉

This comment piece from teacher Nadeine Asbali decribes what is happening much more articulately than I can.

Michaela school will keep its prayer ban – but as a Muslim teacher I know it doesn’t have to be this way.

… it’s worth interrogating why schools like Michaela view their role as being so aggressively secular in the first place.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

My own thoughts:

Birbalsingh is on record saying: "I take away their liberty. For integration to happen, it has to be forced. Pupils will sing “God Save the King”, they will sing “Jerusalem”, they will sing “I Vow to Thee My Country."

Forced integration. No place for republicanism, no time for the observance of faith other than that which is based in Christian liturgy, no place for anything other than British patrotism.

That isn’t inclusive and is certainly not secular.

Birbalsingh claims: There’s a Santa, there’s a Christmas tree, but these are all very secular things. We would never have a nativity play, for instance, we don’t talk about Jesus.

Santa is grounded in the story of Saint Nicholas. A Christmas tree - it’s in the name - a mass for Christ. So much for we don’t “talk” about Jesus unless she is being pedantic and saying that pupils are only singing about Jesus.

Blake’s Jerusalem (although he never called it that) derives from his personal mythology which was based on the Bible. His own illuminated manuscript describes The Sublime of the Bible. The words that immediately preface the verse we know as Jerusalem read …^ our own imaginations - those worlds of eternity in which we shall live forever in Jesus our Lord^. Those that follow the verse are … Would to God that all the Lord’s people were Prophets. Numbers XI.

The holy lamb of God is from from John 1:29. The first lines of Blake’s verse - And did those feet in ancient times … is a reference to the legend that Jesus travelled to England with Joseph of Arimathea - the Jewish man who buried Jesus after the crucifixion. Building Jerusaleum in England’s green and pleasant land draws on Revelations 21:9 where Jesus descends from heaven to establish a New Jerusalem on earth.

The only Muslim prayer that falls within school hours is Zohor. Ideally, it is said between noon and 4:00 pm and can takes as little as five minutes. A Muslim can pray anywhere so long as it is clean and there are facilities for wudu (cleansing). In the working world, breaking for Zohor isn’t always practical but there is a workaround. Qada means fulfilling a duty that was missed due to circumstances. That includes saying prayers that cannot be said at the designated time.

If the school was truly secular then that’s how a pupil could makes up for that missed prayer but Michaela School isn’t secular whatever Birbalsingh claims. She could easily accommodate a space for Zohor as many secular buildings do but is goes against her authoritarianism, her forced integration.

Her school may achieve good exam results what price education if it is delivered under one woman’s totalitarian regime?

Iam64

Also, many of the pupils at this school will have been born here, so are British. Our society is changing and compromise is needed by all of us.
Ive read more about the background to this court hearing. I’m relieved the Judge supported the school. I’ve no respect for the mother in the case who says she’ll send her younger daughter there and bring another court challenge to the rules

She will likely become a vexatious ligitant then.

Just wondering how " these people" can " change us"

I definitely see the positives in that Grantanow - how would it happen

All of our schools should be secular.

Also, many of the pupils at this school will have been born here, so are British. Our society is changing and compromise is needed by all of us.
Ive read more about the background to this court hearing. I’m relieved the Judge supported the school. I’ve no respect for the mother in the case who says she’ll send her younger daughter there and bring another court challenge to the rules

biglouis

*I didn’t see the deleted post but I really wish people would stop all this reporting nonsense. Fgs let others have their say*

The gist of it was that when you emigrate to a country you should make some effort to fit in and not expect the local population to adapt to you.

Such sentiments offend the snitches.

I dislike this " snitch" thing and for what its worth it wasn't me.

Past caring really.

The situation is a lot more complex than if you move here, you have to try to fit it.

Wyllow3

Camille333

Compromise works both ways but unfortunately these people want it one way only,their way
They just want to cause trouble and change us

Confused about what you mean.

Really. I can see exactly what it means.

Glorianny

I'm not quite sure how you stop children praying if they decide they are going to do it. I don't think this will be the end of the matter.
I'm afraid if she has the children singing Christmas carols she will have lost the secular argument in the eyes of many. Carols are undoubtedly Christian in nature and she may think it's cultural but others won't.

School rules. Don't send your child there if you or them can't comply.

Willow3 I would just have shrivelled up in a school like this. Faced with this level of "strictness" my two ASD grandsons would probably been excluded after a few weeks and even the very clever neurotypical one would just have been crushed. No doubt there are people that it suits very well. My 1950s grammar school was strict but a bit of subversion was accepted.

Camille333

Compromise works both ways but unfortunately these people want it one way only,their way
They just want to cause trouble and change us

Confused about what you mean.

If it was Cherie Blair’s Chambers that took it on, I’m surprised it only cost £150,000!

I’m late to the party (thread) but thank goodness good sense has prevailed.
We sent our children to a Catholic school although we’re not catholics. My husband taught there and we knew the ethos and agreed with it. We certainly didn’t demand our children didn’t attend mass, they did and participated except for taking communion, which is not allowed unless you’re a baptised catholic, which our children weren’t. Muslim children and Jewish children attended the school too, and all were expected to attend chapel/mass but not take communion. They all did without any exceptions. Whichever school you choose for your children you must abide by it’s ethos. We were happy, and in fact wanted a Christian education for our children. We went with them to church too, and they went to Sunday School and Boys/Girls Brigade. We just weren’t/aren’t Catholic.

I didn’t see the deleted post but I really wish people would stop all this reporting nonsense. Fgs let others have their say

The gist of it was that when you emigrate to a country you should make some effort to fit in and not expect the local population to adapt to you.

Such sentiments offend the snitches.

Compromise works both ways but unfortunately these people want it one way only,their way
They just want to cause trouble and change us

I am in my fifties and still have a child in secondary school. Having listened to her speak at length I would be very interested in the approach she takes. I think that to the education establishment she is quite threatening.

I think that agree of strictness works for some children and not for others. It wouldn't have worked for my son nor would I want it for my grandchildren.

LizzieDrip

At least those lawyers do rather more than selling houses!

I think you must be confusing lawyers with estate agents.,

I guess that within any faith (or non faith) parents make a wide variety of choices about what matters. Ie we can't say "all muslims/christians/any other faith parents think this or that".

Any consistently badly failing school needs either support or even closing down?