NHS U turn on trans terminology

Smileless2012

Has anyone suggested that members of the trans gender community be forced to be referred too in a medical setting in a way they may find uncomfortable and/or offensive Glorianny. The answer is no.

What you are saying is that women should accept the general use of the terminology being discussed because our biological sex is being rejected to 'be kind' and 'inclusive' and when we protest, we are falsely accused again of rejecting the trans gender community's personal choices.

Asking for equal treatment for all. I'll ask again, what 'equal treatment' are they not receiving?

Whose denying trans men the opportunity for healthcare simply because (they) don't like the name they choose to be called? I don't care what name they choose to be called, but I do care if I am forced into being called that name too if I don't want to be, and I don't.

So how is using the term chest feeder in the NHS forcing any term on you Smileless 2021? The term breast feeder is already in use, is adding another term to that restricting your use? Many nurses like to refer to someone who has just given birth as "mother". I asked that my name always be used. It was. Should I have made a big issue out of the term mother being used for others? Or just accept people are different?

Some transmen may not access treatment or may not be called for testing because their gender means they are not classed as a "cervix haver" Why would you deny anyone the right to be addressed as they choose? Why do you see these people you consider women as unworthy of recognition?

Has anyone suggested that members of the trans gender community be forced to be referred too in a medical setting in a way they may find uncomfortable and/or offensive Glorianny. The answer is no.

What you are saying is that women should accept the general use of the terminology being discussed because our biological sex is being rejected to 'be kind' and 'inclusive' and when we protest, we are falsely accused again of rejecting the trans gender community's personal choices.

Asking for equal treatment for all. I'll ask again, what 'equal treatment' are they not receiving?

Whose denying trans men the opportunity for healthcare simply because (they) don't like the name they choose to be called? I don't care what name they choose to be called, but I do care if I am forced into being called that name too if I don't want to be, and I don't.

Glorianny
^That's what discrimination is.^🤣🪱🤣

Nice wriggle, but your explanation doesn’t make sense.

That's how patriarchy has always worked.

You mean males wanting everything their own way regardless of the needs of females, and some females kow-towing to the male demands.
You’re quite right!

Please don’t tell me what I apparently feel. By all means argue with what I say, but setting me up so that you can argue with what I ‘apparently’ think is entirely pointless.

Doodledog

Smileless2012

The trans gender community is not being discriminated against. We see this false accusation time and time again on these threads and it's as tiresome as it is annoying.

Absolutely.

How many transmen breastfeed? I don’t know, and CBA to look it up, if indeed such figures exist, given the lack of data since self-id. I assume very few though. Why, therefore, should women be expected (if not forced) to accept being referred to as though they, too, are male bodied? If it matters so much to transmen, why not have ‘women and chest-feeders’ or ‘men, including cervix-havers’ as terms? If the answer to that is that it would ‘discriminate’ (which would be to misuse the term yet again, but I’m used to that) then why is it not discriminatory to use offensive terms to adult human females (ie women)? Subsuming women into groups of men is the ultimate in patriarchal anti-feminism.

But these are women according to their birth sex, which is apparently how you want people to be designated when receiving treatment. What you are actually saying is that these women are patriarchal anti-feminists, simply because you reject their personal choices
.
As any real opponent. of the patriarchy and subscribed feminist would know, feminism rejects the concept of any hierarchy, and recognises minority and individual rights. Asking for equal treatment for all.

As has been said many times. You can be called a breast feeder. But no one should be forced to be called that. You can insist only women have cervixes, but there are people who do not wish to be called women who also have cervixes, and you have no right to inflict any term on them, or to deny them the opportunity for health care simply because you don't like the name they choose to be called.

That's what discrimination is. That's how patriarchy has always worked.

I am not inclined to transition to a man. Never have been. The principle that matters is that whether or not I know what it feels like to be someone else I ought to allow that each individual is permitted and helped to be happy in the way they want to be happy.
The only exceptions are criminals .

Some phrases such as 'chest feeder' are so insulting and ugly we would not want to use them of an animal.

Beware of any government on its last legs which appeals to any discriminatory elements in society. They never stop at one group of people.
Would you mind defining your terms here, please, instead of muttering dark prophesies? Which ‘discriminatory elements’? Who are ‘they’, and which ‘groups of people’ are at threat?

Also, on what do you base this analysis? Is it that there are historical examples of dictatorships that have demonised then oppressed multiple groups of people, so it follows that because you have defined a defence of women’s rights as taking from men then inevitably society will slide into fascism? The Billy Bragg school of ‘thought’?

Subsuming women into groups of men is the ultimate in patriarchal anti-feminism absolutely Doodledog and what's so dispiriting is it see this supported by women!!!

Smileless2012

The trans gender community is not being discriminated against. We see this false accusation time and time again on these threads and it's as tiresome as it is annoying.

Absolutely.

How many transmen breastfeed? I don’t know, and CBA to look it up, if indeed such figures exist, given the lack of data since self-id. I assume very few though. Why, therefore, should women be expected (if not forced) to accept being referred to as though they, too, are male bodied? If it matters so much to transmen, why not have ‘women and chest-feeders’ or ‘men, including cervix-havers’ as terms? If the answer to that is that it would ‘discriminate’ (which would be to misuse the term yet again, but I’m used to that) then why is it not discriminatory to use offensive terms to adult human females (ie women)? Subsuming women into groups of men is the ultimate in patriarchal anti-feminism.

I don't care who treats me in hospital so long as they are medically competent. Expressions like 'people with a cervix', 'birth givers', and 'chestfeeders' are ridiculous, however.

The trans gender community is not being discriminated against. We see this false accusation time and time again on these threads and it's as tiresome as it is annoying.

Why would trans men have a problem with terminology in respect of their biological sex? Surely if this is an issue it's because of the lie that one can change sex, that becoming a trans man = being a man.

If a trans man wishes to be referred too as a chest feeder, cervix haver or someone who bleeds then they can request to be referred too in that way. However, it should never have been the case that terminology referring to the biological sex of females should be expunged.

Glorianny wrote:

"Beware of any government on its last legs which appeals to any discriminatory elements in society. They never stop at one group of people."

Yes, such governments tend to become even more autocratic than the ever were.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller

Incidentally if you are really worried about mental health provision take a look at the privatisation of those facilities. bylinetimes.com/2024/03/19/is-stealth-nhs-privatisation-happening-in-plain-sight/

Thanks, Doodledog, for your help.

I've just been on holiday and returned to find the usual misunderstandings and misconceptions arising on GN. "Chest feeders" and "cervix havers" had absolutely nothing to do with transwomen. They were introduced because of the problems of transmen with the terminology being used. These (we must remember) are designated as women by the group complaining, but not apparently as women who can be recognised, or accommodated. Beware any idea which uses inaccurate reasons and inappropriate concepts, with fear thrown, in to justify discrimination.
Transmen are always conveniently forgotten in these discussions, perhaps because they complicate things. I'd rather see more terminology used, which reaches more of the population regardless of their birth sex, gender, or sexuality, than see any section of the population miss out on health care.
Beware of any government on its last legs which appeals to any discriminatory elements in society. They never stop at one group of people.

Rosie, I used the word 'sexuality' after due consideration. I wrote about my own experience of sexless attitudes of caring staff in the hospital ward to explain how I personally feel.

To elaborate on these experiences I was taken to a shower room by an elderly man who washed all my sweaty body except for between my legs and for this he offered me the wash cloth, which is what female nurses also do when the patient is capable.
I was unconcerned about the elderly nurse's sex as I was more concerned that he was himself suffering from near-exhaustion .
Your valuable insight into the difference between sexual orientation and physiological /anatomical sex did not apply to me n the above, and similar, circumstances. I can well imagine how it may have been different for more sensitive patients both men and women.

Your hypothesis of the Muslim woman in hospital is very appropriate to the discussion about how to preserve the dignity and autonomy of the patient, especially when health services are depleted. I hope that certain ethnic groups are given extra consideration, and indeed that any patient who asks for a same-sex doctor or nurse is listened to and their wishes complied with

I wasn't meaning to imply they would feel like hotels, just that private facilities are what one expects in hotels, as opposed to say a hostel where facilities are shared, or indeed ordinary hospital wards.
Thanks for that link and I fully agree with the patients' concerns. I can see the safety aspect is heightened in a mental health facility. The privacy, dignity, disturbed sleep etc apply equally to any hospital patient so we should be aiming to provide similar facilities to all.

Rosie51

Are you sure about that Wyllow3 and what proportion is nearly all? So mental health wards are now a series of en-suite rooms? Why isn't that the norm for all NHS patients? So like hotels really.

Yes Rosie.

I say nearly all because some dormitories still exist despite policy - this is from 2 years ago

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/06/mental-health-patients-kept-in-shared-wards-despite-calls-for-nhs-to-end-practice

Hotel? You'd need to visit one to see if it felt like a hotel.....

severe MH patients including many sectioned under the MH act, so its health and safety concerns.

There are so few beds left now after cutbacks workers endlessly desperate and often patients are sent out of the area. For example, locally 65 and over patients (excluding dementia) have one ward with 15 beds only for a large city.

I am still a little confused about why anyone would object to being helped by a trans person, so I read the original post .
They wouldn’t, except maybe for religious reasons or if, for example they had been raped and were too traumatised to be able to have a man touching them intimately. Plus, this is mainly about patients on single-sex wards.

I am still confused about why a patient in hospital is concerned about the sex of the person washing and otherwise helping them.
See above, and maybe reread the thread, paying special attention to the previous replies to you on this regarding informed consent?

I am puzzled because I was in hospital due to stroke and I was completely reliant on the intimate work of carers, doctors, nurses, and other ancillary workers. I could not have cared less about their sexuality!
Sexuality and so-called ‘gender’ are not the same thing, and as Smileless says, not everyone is like you. (See also previous comments on informed consent.)

Thanks for the kind words about my earlier post.

My friend told me about when her granddaughter was born and the midwife asked if she could record her sex as female. The baby’s mum said ‘of course, as she is a girl’, and was then asked about her gender. The mum said she assumed it matched and the midwife said, ‘Oh, she’ll be heterosexual then’. Unbelievable isn’t it?

Caleo

I am still a little confused about why anyone would object to being helped by a trans person, so I read the original post .
I am still confused about why a patient in hospital is concerned about the sex of the person washing and otherwise helping them.

I am puzzled because I was in hospital due to stroke and I was completely reliant on the intimate work of carers, doctors, nurses, and other ancillary workers. I could not have cared less about their sexuality!

I think you may have to check out what sexuality actually means!

Caleo

I am still a little confused about why anyone would object to being helped by a trans person, so I read the original post .
I am still confused about why a patient in hospital is concerned about the sex of the person washing and otherwise helping them.

I am puzzled because I was in hospital due to stroke and I was completely reliant on the intimate work of carers, doctors, nurses, and other ancillary workers. I could not have cared less about their sexuality!

Caleo are you happy to tell a Muslim woman that she must be prepared to abandon the rules of her faith and be intimately touched by a male, no matter how he presents?

Just because you don't care doesn't mean that every other woman has to feel the same.

I don't care about the sexuality of anyone who attends me, but I might care about their sex. Who anyone is sexually attracted to is their business and doesn't affect me one jot. Being male or transgender is not sexuality. You cannot change your sex and if I want female intimate care then a transwoman or any other male does not fit that category.

Caleo
I am still confused about why a patient in hospital is concerned about the sex of the person washing and otherwise helping them.
I’m sure you aren’t confused at all, just being deliberately obtuse.
If you read the thread carefully enough, you will note that people aren’t objecting about the sex of who is helping them, merely whether the person who is doing so is lying, pretending to be something that they are not.
The problem with a liar, is that you can never be sure when they are telling the truth.

But not everyone is like you Caleo. It probably wouldn't bother me, but not everyone's like me.

It would bother me however if I had requested to be administered too only by females and to think that had been the case, only to discover that in fact someone I thought was female was actually trans.

Iam64

Late to this discussion. Great post Doodledog.

A colleague still working was completing a Diversity Form for a 6 week old baby. They were expected to complete name, birth sex, gender ID.

... where've you been all this time?!

What is a Diversity Form? And, what circumstances require you to complete one?

I'm so out-of-the-loop on these matters. I know that in the fields of health and social-care, the forms you are frequently asked to complete have become more diverse - in the sense that the particular authority wants to know more about you than they did - say 30 / 40 years previous.

Are they a one-size-fits-all type of form - which is obviously cheaper than having specific forms? If not, then this is madness.

I've seen a Diversity Monitoring Form which is for those seeking public appointments / employment... they have so many options for "I prefer not to say" that you could end up with the department basically only knowing your name, address, and age!