NHS U turn on trans terminology

Smileless2012

I don't care why this is happening within the NHS, I'm just pleased that it is.

👏👏👏

I don't care why this is happening within the NHS, I'm just pleased that it is.

It's not the NHS itself taking a new line - it's the Tories hoping that this populist diversion will get them votes while the waiting lists grow longer. It's sheer coincidence that it's probably a sensible if rather simplistic idea and it's only a consultation, not a decision.

Daddima

Can I ask when sex and gender became different, for I remember when both were the same?

To me, there is no such thing as a ‘transwoman’. There are men who choose to dress and live as women, and fair play to them, they should be able to do as they please, as long as it doesn’t affect others, as should ‘transmen’.

The pronouns thing is, to me, much ado about nothing. My pronouns are I/me, but nobody has ever asked me what they are. People who say,‘ I use they/them pronouns’ actually mean, ‘ I want you to use they/them when talking about me’ ( which surely they will rarely hear anyway).

Sex and gender were conflated by Stonewall when they had achieved the aim of getting full legal rights for gay people and found themselves rudderless and in need of a cause to justify their —salaries— existence. Somewhere around 2016 I think.

The pronouns issue is a means of making people comply with the ideology. By using ‘preferred pronouns’ people are agreeing that so called ‘gender’ is a choice, and that non-conformity to stereotypes is something that has to be declared as a ‘gender’ of its own, rather than a pretty usual position. I agree that it’s all rather self-absorbed in many cases. I have never felt the need to coerce others to validate my ‘authentic self’ by imposing linguistic patterns onto them, particularly as a way to refer to me in my absence, but I don’t expect people to care one way or the other - to me, the obsession with ’gender’ is very regressive.

Oreo

So, I may be bucking the trend on the thread for not minding who attends to me.Sorry about that.

... it doesn't matter what other people's choices are - it's the fact that we have them. And you don't have to 'explain' them either.

What I mean is, that no-one is entitled to question why you don't want a man performing those intimate procedures.

Caleo appears to think we'd be grateful to receive the care from a man or transwoman - if we were desperate.

Maybe, maybe not. But if we ever reach that stage within the NHS when there is no choice, then we need to challenge the system, rather than simply accept it.

I was hospitalised for 4 months during the worst of the Covid outbreak when normal staffing levels were severely compromised - and I was never put in that position... hospitals have ways and means of dealing with this type of dilemma - like temporarily borrowing staff from other wards. So, it's a very unlikely scenario.

So, I may be bucking the trend on the thread for not minding who attends to me.Sorry about that.

Caleo

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

That’s your view of course, but I don’t want my bum cleaned by a man thanks.

Callistemon21

^I think Caleo is missing the point^

Again.

🤔

Do you think it’s deliberate?

This is not anti-men. We are not anti-men. We are refusing to accept as, some have attempted to force us to on pain of being reported for 'hate crime' / transphobia, that a man can change himself into a woman because he identifies as one / feels like one / or says he is one.

On any given day just because he wakes up and decides he’s female that day. Self id, gender fluid….. I can’t believe it was allowed to get as far as it has. Utter madness.

I think Caleo is missing the point

Again.

🤔

Doodledog

Rosie51

Caleo

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

And that's absolutely fine. Informed consent is all we've ever wanted. If I want to be attended to by a female and none are available then I make a choice to be unattended or to accept a male person, whether they present as male or not. I would think most grans have had examinations by male doctors, I certainly have, but I gave my informed consent, it wasn't done by stealth or intimidation.

We have said that over and over, Rosie, haven't we?

If there is a single instance on any thread where someone has said they don't want to be treated by male doctors, nurses or carers I'd like to see it. The important bit is 'informed' - we want to be treated as adults and told who is touching us, and to have the option to refuse, as women of some religions might choose to do. That most of us wouldn't refuse is neither here nor there. It may surprise Some Grans to learn that many of us have husbands and sons, male friends and acquaintances and are not man-haters. We just want the things we've posted about for years now, and it's looking like we might get them.

If there is a single instance on any thread where someone has said they don't want to be treated by male doctors, nurses or carers I'd like to see it.

I think Caleo is missing the point.

This is not anti-men. We are not anti-men. We are refusing to accept as, some have attempted to force us to on pain of being reported for 'hate crime' / transphobia, that a man can change himself into a woman because he identifies as one / feels like one / or says he is one.

We just want the things we've posted about for years now, and it's looking like we might get them it does indeed Doodledog and for the first time in a long time, I'm feeling positive about this issue.

Great post Rosie .

Rosie51

Caleo

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

And that's absolutely fine. Informed consent is all we've ever wanted. If I want to be attended to by a female and none are available then I make a choice to be unattended or to accept a male person, whether they present as male or not. I would think most grans have had examinations by male doctors, I certainly have, but I gave my informed consent, it wasn't done by stealth or intimidation.

We have said that over and over, Rosie, haven't we?

If there is a single instance on any thread where someone has said they don't want to be treated by male doctors, nurses or carers I'd like to see it. The important bit is 'informed' - we want to be treated as adults and told who is touching us, and to have the option to refuse, as women of some religions might choose to do. That most of us wouldn't refuse is neither here nor there. It may surprise Some Grans to learn that many of us have husbands and sons, male friends and acquaintances and are not man-haters. We just want the things we've posted about for years now, and it's looking like we might get them.

Informed consent-not being lied to. Like many, I’ve been attended to by male doctors or nursing staff. In the case of intimate care there has always been a female in attendance as well as the male. Not seen as necessary when nurse/doctor was female.

TW are not female. If they do not allow informed consent, it’s as if their need to lie is more important than the patient’s needs.

Rosie51

Caleo

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

And that's absolutely fine. Informed consent is all we've ever wanted. If I want to be attended to by a female and none are available then I make a choice to be unattended or to accept a male person, whether they present as male or not. I would think most grans have had examinations by male doctors, I certainly have, but I gave my informed consent, it wasn't done by stealth or intimidation.

You're missing the point Caleo.

Rosie51 explains it well.

tickingbird

It just illustrates the cowardice displayed by ALL the organizations and political figures in the face of bullying activists.

We should be applauding and handing out gongs to the likes of Graham Lineham (who has lost everything because of his stance on this), JK Rowling, Sharon Davis. All showed tremendous courage in standing up to this madness and at great personal cost.

Absolutely. Three cheers for those who have lost jobs, contracts and relationship because they’ve stuck up for women’s rights.

Now, all of a sudden, EVERYONE seems to know what a woman is! But we shouldn’t have to argue the point when being admitted to hospital or going to a public toilet. It’s been a social convention for a long time to allow separate space for women, which relies on men to observe the separation. Why change now?

Doodledog

Here's another case. King Canute would be delighted at the way the tides are turning

Social Worker gets awarded £58,000 in damages after being suspended for 'gender critical' beliefs.

Unprecedented exemplary damages! And equally important the "train your staff" instruction. Thanks for that link Doodledog .

Caleo

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

And that's absolutely fine. Informed consent is all we've ever wanted. If I want to be attended to by a female and none are available then I make a choice to be unattended or to accept a male person, whether they present as male or not. I would think most grans have had examinations by male doctors, I certainly have, but I gave my informed consent, it wasn't done by stealth or intimidation.

Indeed. My ovaries have been removed so what am I to be called?

Whatever your gametes and chromosomes dictate. They cannot be changed, no matter what you wear, no matter what you do to your body and no matter which little ticky box you pick on a questionnaire.

I have every respect for trans people. Having spent most of my childhood feeling far more comfortable thinking of myself as a boy rather than a girl. I understand where the desire to transform comes from, and pace Daddima there is a lot more to it than There are men who choose to dress and live as women. It is a feeling that really you are mentally a member of the opposite sex to your body.

However the mind and body are equal and while your mind can take you a long way. The sex you are born into is immutable and that will always affect your health outcomes, and your physical development and if you are sexually male, the probability is that you will be sexually attracted to women, which means in intimate female contexts, you will be seen as a potential sexual threat to women.

I am a woman who would rather have male or transwoman clean my bottom than the job not get done. It may surprise some Grans how quickly a patient in need of attention gets used to being attended to by men.

Can I ask when sex and gender became different, for I remember when both were the same?

To me, there is no such thing as a ‘transwoman’. There are men who choose to dress and live as women, and fair play to them, they should be able to do as they please, as long as it doesn’t affect others, as should ‘transmen’.

The pronouns thing is, to me, much ado about nothing. My pronouns are I/me, but nobody has ever asked me what they are. People who say,‘ I use they/them pronouns’ actually mean, ‘ I want you to use they/them when talking about me’ ( which surely they will rarely hear anyway).

Here's another case. King Canute would be delighted at the way the tides are turning

Social Worker gets awarded £58,000 in damages after being suspended for 'gender critical' beliefs.

To be crude, women 'have' penises in all sorts of ways. It proves nothing. Not to mention dildoes, which I understand csn be wonderfully lifelike.

Perhaps Stella Creasey got confused.

NanKate

Stella Creasy must be raving mad. 🤪 A woman with a penis is what I would call a MAN

Such good sensible news for a change.

Ah, but, it could be a strap on.