NHS U turn on trans terminology

Is *everything^ with which you disagree written off as a patriarchal concept?

Who gets parental leave is up to the parents, agreed - but it would be an irresponsible father who would agree that the mother of his child should go straight back to work after the birth of a child, particularly after a caesarean delivery.

This is very much a side issue though. The point is that women have been discriminated against for years, and allowing males to be called women will provide a loophole for employers who wish to discriminate again to do so without affecting their data. Statistics, like language, matter as they help us to make sense of the world.

Nobody is saying that all employers would do this, just as nobody is saying that all transwomen do anything - the point, which I would have thought was obvious, is that those with a will would have a loophole, and that could easily be plugged by registering transwomen as such on HR records. These need not be made public other than in anonymised form (ie x% of employees are trans), but would reflect the actual sex distribution in an organisation and how many employees at senior level are female.

Glorianny it seems to me that you think that transpeople should be ashamed of being trans and should try to hide it by pretending that they belong to a sex that any blood/tissue test will show to be inaccurate.

Why should trans people be ashamed of being what they are and treated as what they are, people with bodies of one sex, but a mind that makes them more comfortable living the life of someone of the opposite sex.

Parental leave should be available to parents and should be decided by them and no one else.
Of course there is an emotional and physical impact on the mother. Of course that should be accommodated.
It's the old mistake that providing something to others necessarily limits it to some. It doesn't. Extending opportunities never does.
It's a patriarchal concept that has always been used to prevent change. Nothing about extending parental rights means maternal rights will be limited. On the other hand as "Pregnant and Screwed" shows the patriarchy is actively using the system to punish women.

Glorianny says . . .
Oh dear it really gets to you doesn't it.
You can't always tell. Anyway of judging will be intrusive and will be detrimental to women 🤣🤣🤣

It evidently gets to you Glorianny that you are among the few who can’t tell, despite any tall, strong, muscular, deep-voiced acquaintances.
However, since some of us can tell, how will it be intrusive and detrimental to women?
What is detrimental to females, is the fact that some TIM feel obliged to lie their way into female sports, safe places, jobs etc.

If they didn’t, there would be no need even for you to have to identify who is male and who is female, so no need to worry about being intrusive and detrimental.

Any male putting himself in female safe spaces, sports, jobs etc will be detrimental to women. is a truth you seem unable to acknowledge.

Exactly, and how dare we expect to be cared for by the baby’s father in those early weeks. First time mum, significant abdominal surgery in c section and managing to breast feed . Call me an old feminist if you like, or even just the maternal grannie but i don’t believe it’s in any way ‘equal’ not to recognise the emotional and physical impact on the mother

Iam64

Of course fathers need and want to be involved but, they don’t do pregnancy, c sections, child birth or breast feeding. At least acknowledge this

That would mean agreeing that women would have a right to something a man wouldn't. Even though women's bodies need to recover from giving birth, and breastfeeding can be tiring, how dare we expect more parental leave than a man?

It doesn't 'really get to me'. Being told what I think irritates me, but I'll survive.

I don't really understand - it is you who brings up genital inspections over and over and flippin' over again, and you seem to be the only person who can't tell male from female. You also seem to think that the more often you say it the truer it gets.

Of course fathers need and want to be involved but, they don’t do pregnancy, c sections, child birth or breast feeding. At least acknowledge this

Daddima

Glorianny

Aveline

The whole of my belief system is based on basic biology. Men cannot become women. They can dress up like them if they want but they are not and never will be women.

I wonder how you will know who is a woman Aveline?
How anyone will know? Do you propose we are all inspected regularly just to make sure none of us are men dressed up?

Can you give me an example of a time when you HAVE to decide if someone is a man or a woman?
Someone you meet at a party? Someone you meet at work? Someone who serves you in a shop? Drives your bus? Delivers your mail? Cooks your dinner in a restaurant?
I can see that in medical situations it may arise, but otherwise, I’m struggling to think when it would make any difference to me.

Of course it doesn't matter, except I suppose to those who think transwomen are somehow usurping women's roles. They aren't. And you can't tell a transwoman anyway.

Doodledog

*I never mentioned genitals, so I wonder why you immediately thought of them? Perhaps because you realise they are the only way of telling.*
I dare say that Aveline mentioned genitals as that is what you always bring up in these repetitive exchanges. Anyway, they are certainly not the only way of telling. The vast majority of people can tell male from female without seeing their genitals, and do so every day. Your much-vaunted genital inspection would act as confirmation, but it is not the only way of telling, for pretty much everyone but you.

Oh dear it really gets to you doesn't it.
You can't always tell. Anyway of judging will be intrusive and will be detrimental to women.

Glorianny

Aveline

The whole of my belief system is based on basic biology. Men cannot become women. They can dress up like them if they want but they are not and never will be women.

I wonder how you will know who is a woman Aveline?
How anyone will know? Do you propose we are all inspected regularly just to make sure none of us are men dressed up?

Can you give me an example of a time when you HAVE to decide if someone is a man or a woman?
Someone you meet at a party? Someone you meet at work? Someone who serves you in a shop? Drives your bus? Delivers your mail? Cooks your dinner in a restaurant?
I can see that in medical situations it may arise, but otherwise, I’m struggling to think when it would make any difference to me.

Iam64

*all these posts aboutthe menopause and maternity leave are just red herrings. Equality gives parental and not maternity leave *
So, mothers who have difficult pregnancies, C sections and go on to breast feed are to be lumped with the child’s father, who was likely to be very supportive but having no real idea what it all feels like
Honestly glory - I’m increasingly thinking you’re playing out on these threads. A poster referred earlier to the minty python argument sketch. You clearly want/need the full hour.

Of course not. Provision for those things should be automatically available. But if we are to progress to equality and not insist child care is solely the responsibility of women we have to have paternity leave as well.

The child's father should be equally involved from the start.

Not to mention those who adopt, gay men who use a surrogate mother but will raise the child together and the many other ways that families are created today. All deserve proper parental leave.

all these posts aboutthe menopause and maternity leave are just red herrings. Equality gives parental and not maternity leave
So, mothers who have difficult pregnancies, C sections and go on to breast feed are to be lumped with the child’s father, who was likely to be very supportive but having no real idea what it all feels like
Honestly glory - I’m increasingly thinking you’re playing out on these threads. A poster referred earlier to the minty python argument sketch. You clearly want/need the full hour.

I never mentioned genitals, so I wonder why you immediately thought of them? Perhaps because you realise they are the only way of telling.
I dare say that Aveline mentioned genitals as that is what you always bring up in these repetitive exchanges. Anyway, they are certainly not the only way of telling. The vast majority of people can tell male from female without seeing their genitals, and do so every day. Your much-vaunted genital inspection would act as confirmation, but it is not the only way of telling, for pretty much everyone but you.

Glorianny in threads about females and trans you have always gone to the how can you tell without inspecting their genitals when people say they can tell males from females even though you can’t.

Why don’t you say TIM (males) should be truthful and not lie their way into female spaces, sports etc. Whatever they look like or feel like, they don’t have to lie.
Do you endorse their right to lie to get something that as males, they are not entitled to get?

I read your comment about Monsoon changing rooms. Since females were apparently happy changing in spaces free from males, why don't you suggest that males approach Monsoon and ask for changing rooms for males instead of expecting females to do the work?

Had it not been for the rise of violent, cheating, threatening, misogynistic TIM and their TRA fans, any TW who did not wish to engage in that TIM lifestyle would not be subject to any discrimination you keep mentioning but not explaining.

Now you're really scraping the barrel. I wonder why you go on and on about this. Every point you make is refuted. It's clear that we don't agree with you. I can only conclude that you're just looking for an argument. Are you a Monty Python fan?

Aveline

Glorianny you seem obsessed with the need to inspect a person's genitals in order to tell their sex. Seriously, we women are not daft, mostly not blind or deaf. Trust me. We can tell.

You think you can. But what if you are wrong?
I never mentioned genitals, so I wonder why you immediately thought of them? Perhaps because you realise they are the only way of telling.

*Women are discriminated against when:
they are unable to have spaces to call their own*
But they are. It is enforced in law.
Why do you keep posting this inaccuracy?

they are unable to compete against other women instead of male bodied competitors in areas such as sport
This is a complicated area. But pretending you have any solution in everyday sport is untrue. Legislation in the US has led to transmen competing against girls because they are restricted to birth sex. In other areas there is racial unrest which has never been addressed. There is no simple answer.

they are judged against the male perspective in Arts and Literature
How? There are many award winning women artists and writers.

* they are addressed in terms that many will not understand when it comes to healthcare*
Health care terms should always be inclusive and easily understandable, the wider the range of language used the better. Terms should never be restricted.

when their societal position in areas such as poverty, crime, pensions, housing, education, health and more is hidden by the fact that it is impossible (because of self-id) to tell from statistics which policies impact more on women than men
But if someone lives their life as a woman and is legally accepted as a woman they will face exactly the same difficulties as other women regardless of race, or any other delineation
Undoubtedly there are areas where sex matters but this is primarily in medical care not in any other area.

when they are imprisoned with male sex offenders and punished when they complain
The placing of transwomen in women's prisons was a knee jerk reaction to a number of transwomen committing suicide in male prisons. All sex offenders should be imprisoned in separate units.

when the hostels and DV refuges that women built for women are no longer single-sex
The refuges are for victims of DV and some transwomen are victims. Some women are refused admission, some transwomen will be refused admission.

when those with religious obligations are unable to shop in places such as Monsoon because males insist on trying on prom dresses in semi-communal changing rooms, and to swim in what used to be women-only pool sessions
Monsoon should provide adequate changing facilities and not insist women must use communal ones.
A women only session can be legally be held by any pool.

Certainly maternity was an area that needed dealing with. It hasn't been otherwise there wouldn't be an organisation like Pregnant then Screwed". But even that organisation, which I think you must agree has a feminist agenda, is fighting for parental rights and includes fathers in its demonstrations. Because we have moved on from the assertion that children are only the concern of women into the area of parental rights.

I wonder do you imagine that if women dress and behave in a more masculine way, creating the impression that they may be a transwoman they will stand more chance of being employed?

Glorianny you seem obsessed with the need to inspect a person's genitals in order to tell their sex. Seriously, we women are not daft, mostly not blind or deaf. Trust me. We can tell.

How am I discriminating against women do explain?

With apologies to everyone else who has heard all this (and put it forward themselves).

Women are discriminated against when:
they are unable to have spaces to call their own.

they are unable to compete against other women instead of male bodied competitors in areas such as sport.

they are judged against the male perspective in Arts and Literature.

they are addressed in terms that many will not understand when it comes to healthcare.

when their societal position in areas such as poverty, crime, pensions, housing, education, health and more is hidden by the fact that it is impossible (because of self-id) to tell from statistics which policies impact more on women than men.

when they are imprisoned with male sex offenders and punished when they complain.

when the hostels and DV refuges that women built for women are no longer single-sex.

when those with religious obligations are unable to shop in places such as Monsoon because males insist on trying on prom dresses in semi-communal changing rooms, and to swim in what used to be women-only pool sessions.

Is that enough to be going on with?

What has changed the focus of your attack on my post from one claiming that 'my belief system' is one based on an assumption of male superiority (ironic coming from you!) to one based on the entirely legitimate belief that most people can tell men from women? You do seem to be blowing with the wind, and when one accusation is refuted are simply replacing it with another.

Maternity leave and menstruation/menopause are not 'red herrings'. They are reasons why women have traditionally found it more difficult than men to 'get to the top' at work, based on the perception that such problems are universal. I am fully aware that not all women have babies, difficult periods or a troublesome menopause, but that is not the point, is it?

You can repeat it as often as you like, but in the vast majority of cases employers will be well aware whether someone is male or female - you really can (or most people really can, whether you can or not). That is no reason not to employ them - I am in no way advocating discrimination against transwomen in the workplace - but a male should not be able to apply as a woman and count as a woman in equal opps statistics. Transwomen should be recorded as male or as transwomen, so that employers cannot use them as a way to circumvent policies on sex discrimination.

Aveline

The whole of my belief system is based on basic biology. Men cannot become women. They can dress up like them if they want but they are not and never will be women.

I wonder how you will know who is a woman Aveline?
How anyone will know? Do you propose we are all inspected regularly just to make sure none of us are men dressed up?

The whole of my belief system is based on basic biology. Men cannot become women. They can dress up like them if they want but they are not and never will be women.

Doodledog

*The whole of your post is based on the false belief that men are necessarily stronger and more active or forceful than women.*
No, it really isn't. It's based on the fact ('fact' as in 'something that is indisputable') that for many years all women were discriminated against. I am using 'discrimination' in the true sense of the word, rather than as a catch-all for the belief that objecting to behaviour and a sense of entitlement of individuals can be irritating to other individuals - it is on record and remembered by many that women were legally paid less than men doing the same job because it was believed that they would be weaker and less active or forceful than men, and that they would have children and leave, or claim maternity pay when it came in. Transpeople have legal protection from such discrimination.

I recommend some research into the Amazons. Long believed by a patriarchal society to be the fantasy of Ancient Greeks they are now emerging as a real entity.
No thanks. I have no real interest in them, and have other things to research just now.

You seem to subscribe to the belief that there are jobs women cannot do. It's similar to the belief once common that women had smaller brains and so could not cope with the same level of intellectual study men do. Thank goodness that has gone.
You seem to subscribe to the belief that you can read my mind. I have no such beliefs (ie that there are jobs that women cannot do, or that we have smaller brains than men). Please show me where you gained that misconception, as I can assure you it is misplaced.

An older women does not need maternity leave, are they more likely to be employed?
In anticipation of this straw-clutching, I pointed out that I no longer risk that sort of discrimination, but support women who do. I hope that in turn they will support laws that prohibit discrimination on grounds of age.

As an employer would be unaware of anyone's trans status quite how will they manage to know that a transwoman will never require maternity leave? Anymore that they might be aware that a transman could do?
I appreciate that you believe that transwomen are undetectable, but as many of us have pointed out many times, you are very much in the minority in that belief.

It's great to support discrimination laws for others, just a pity that some are not supported because of personal beliefs.
It is indeed. Maybe one day you will come to realise how far your own personal beliefs discriminate against women. I won't hold my breath though.

How am I discriminating against women do explain?

Your whole belief system seems to be based on the fact that you can tell someone's birth sex by looking- you really can't.

All of these posts about maternity leave, and menopause are just red herrings. Equality gives parental and not maternity leave. It gives gay couples the right to leave, adoptive people the right to leave and transpeople the right to leave when they become parents.. And employers have no idea who will require parental leave when they employ anyone.

Women who give birth are definitely discriminated against in the workplace but it is absolutely nothing to do with transpeople. It is to do with a patriarchal system established by men which puts a time limit on women appealing against dismissal during pregnancy. Which is why I support this organisation pregnantthenscrewed.com/about-maternity-discrimination/
Which campaigns for pregnant women but also for parents.

As mentioned earlier, Glorianny has come up with a what if
but if a policy

Please explain what trans discrimination is, outwith anyone refusing to accept the lie implied and perpetrated by some trans and TRA and even posters on social media, that anyone can change sex.
Posters keep asking for examples of discrimination against trans, but you only mention what ifs where your idea of discrimination is trans not being allowed to do whatever they want.

It's similar to the belief once common that women had smaller brains and so could not cope with the same level of intellectual study men do. Thank goodness that has gone.

Just a shame there's this laughable concept of a "ladybrain" that somehow gets put into a male body.