I have noted that those people who are worried about the influence of the Muslim faith in Western Democracies are often referred to as Racist and ignorant people who should be sneered at or ignored.
Recently we had the thread about Katherine Birblsingh’s court case about the right of Muslims to pray at schoool. Denmark and Sweden are now worried about Muslim influence. Today I read an article in the Spectator, which is generally on the right as the New Statesman is on the left.
This article is about France politics but I found it interesting.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/france-is-waking-up-to-the-threat-of-the-muslim-brotherhood-is-britain/.
If this does not work and is behind a paywall I will try again. Responses will be interesting.
Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.
Callistemon it's because Israel is fighting a terrorist group with weapons supplied by the US, UK and other European countries but are killing an unacceptable number of Palestinians including women and children in the process. This makes it very different to many of the other conflicts in the world. I remember the protests about the Vietnam war which was similar in that the US was complicit in the deaths of civilians. There have,of course, been supporters of a free Palestine state for a very long time but they have been joined by lots of people who just find the actions of the IDF and this Israeli government completely unacceptable. I'm not anti semitic and support Israel's right to defend itself but believe they should adher to the rules of war and I don't think they are. Tbh I think the aim of eliminating Hamas is unachievable, Gaza is being destroyed partly in revenge and all Israel is doing is acting as a recruiter for Hamas. I think it's unfortunate that some promote the idea that anyone who wants a ceasefire is a supporter of Hamas as that's certainly not my position. Sadly there are some anti semites who will come out in support of Palestinians and Hamas but this war is also increasing the level of Islamophobia.
I am not at all dismissive of the suffering in Gaza and have wept at times and at the suffering of the hostages.
However, I do take Katie590's point about the genocides that have occurred over the ages. They are truly horrific, millions have died needlessly, but how many or people have protested so vociferously about them?
And about other ongoing atrocities?
I just caught up and glad I didn't see the deleted comments
foxie48
I also found Katie590s post rather unpleasant, not because I find the truth "unpleasant" but because the presentation of the truth felt unempathetic, but I know that is Katie's style of communication, just like Oreo likes to patronise posters. I've learned to ignore it. I'm sure people find my posts irritating in some way, but hey, none of us is perfect and I am perfectly happy for people to ignore my posts. Just scroll on by!
True, nobody is perfect and it could well be some posters will find your posts irritating Foxie48 but will be too polite to say so.
Valdali It staggers me that you have a problem with another poster seeing things differently to you and finding a differing opinion hurtful.We all see things differently at times and forums are for the airing of opinions.
Most people understand that others hold different views to their own. Since holding a view and not acting on it causes no harm, then it’s good to be able to understand and/or at least accept that’s others have different views.
It’s called tolerance.
I sort of do have a problem with Katie590 seeing the world differently from me, specifically on this issue. I just can't understand how people can be so dismissive of the suffering in Gaza. I accept that nothing I say will change their opinion but their opinion is still hurtful to me.
I agree with Katie that Hamas are the truly evil ones and that they have brought nothing but death and destruction on their people.
I don’t ignore your posts foxie, I always read them, but I also read Katie’s and Oreo’sposts and I find them neither unpleasant nor patronising. There are a couple of posters who I do scroll by, because I know they will be unpleasant, sarcastic, or shouty. I want to read all points of view, but not but not be subjected to unpleasantness. Especially sarcastic unpleasantness, which has been directed my way sometimes, but not from you foxie.
It’s always good to read a range of views on any subject and this subject is very emotive and highly charged. I agree with Katie that the children in Gaza are totally innocent and I think we all have great sympathy for their situation and suffering, just as we did for the Israeli children who were tortured and murdered, and those who were taken hostage. Wherever we look in the world, wherever there is conflict, it’s the children who suffer the most, and in Gaza along with other areas, the adults who should have protected the children have totally failed and have exposed them to danger, injury and death.
Katie590 I don't have a problem with you seeing the world differently to me and I accept that nothing that I will say will change your opinion.
foxie48
I also found Katie590s post rather unpleasant, not because I find the truth "unpleasant" but because the presentation of the truth felt unempathetic, but I know that is Katie's style of communication, just like Oreo likes to patronise posters. I've learned to ignore it. I'm sure people find my posts irritating in some way, but hey, none of us is perfect and I am perfectly happy for people to ignore my posts. Just scroll on by!
I sympathize with the children because they are innocent, Palestinians elected Hamas, once in power Hamas murdered the opposition then spent 20years indoctrinating the population and building up arms. They then deliberately attacked Israeli civilians killing 1200 and kidnapping others to use as hostages.
Then knew full well what Israel’s reaction would be, they fought by firing rockets from hospital grounds knowing Israel would strike back killing civilians. Hamas did not evacuate buildings they were fighting from they used civilians as human shields, they wanted civilians killed because it was good propaganda for them. Propaganda was by far their most effective weapon, broadcast willing by Qatar based Al Jazeera.
It is Hamas that should be accused of genocide, even now when they have no hope of victory they still allow civilians to be killed.
I also found Katie590s post rather unpleasant, not because I find the truth "unpleasant" but because the presentation of the truth felt unempathetic, but I know that is Katie's style of communication, just like Oreo likes to patronise posters. I've learned to ignore it. I'm sure people find my posts irritating in some way, but hey, none of us is perfect and I am perfectly happy for people to ignore my posts. Just scroll on by!
zakouma66
Katie590
On the scale of wars and genocides Gaza is small there is much larger loss of life in other places currently. The difference is that all Islamic nations are sympathetic with Gaza and Al Jazeera has run a very effective propaganda campaign.
Hamas is a terrorist organization there are no nations that would tolerate their activity in their country, not even Iran.
Yet large numbers of population want a ceasefire which will leave Gaza in Hamas control and solve nothing.dear me, This has to be one of the most unpleasant things I've read.
It is being described by people who know a lot more than any of us as Genocide. Its unthinkable whats going on there.
You find the truth is unpleasant zakouma66 well, it often is.
zakouma66
Katie590
On the scale of wars and genocides Gaza is small there is much larger loss of life in other places currently. The difference is that all Islamic nations are sympathetic with Gaza and Al Jazeera has run a very effective propaganda campaign.
Hamas is a terrorist organization there are no nations that would tolerate their activity in their country, not even Iran.
Yet large numbers of population want a ceasefire which will leave Gaza in Hamas control and solve nothing.dear me, This has to be one of the most unpleasant things I've read.
It is being described by people who know a lot more than any of us as Genocide. Its unthinkable whats going on there.
Would you like a list of the conflicts that caused greater loss of life, in some parts of the world life is cheap and terrorists have no qualms to kill a few thousand civilians.
There is nothing you or I can do to stop that, it’s the hard world we live in, the UK is lucky we have good security, the loss of life is small.
Katie590
On the scale of wars and genocides Gaza is small there is much larger loss of life in other places currently. The difference is that all Islamic nations are sympathetic with Gaza and Al Jazeera has run a very effective propaganda campaign.
Hamas is a terrorist organization there are no nations that would tolerate their activity in their country, not even Iran.
Yet large numbers of population want a ceasefire which will leave Gaza in Hamas control and solve nothing.
dear me, This has to be one of the most unpleasant things I've read.
It is being described by people who know a lot more than any of us as Genocide. Its unthinkable whats going on there.
There's lots about Gaza, just Google Israeli Gaza war and you can take your pick from lots of different sources. I disagree that the BBC promotes Hamas propaganda but there's plenty more reliable and respected media available. Surely you are not claiming that they all spout Hamas propaganda?
Vintagewhine
No,the difference is that Rwanda and Cambodia were civil wars with terrible consequences for it's citizens. Israel is fighting a terrorist group in Gaza, funded by the US and others but is not following the rules of war and killing many citizens who are not terrorists. Do you read any Israeli media, Katie 590? You should there's plenty of concern about the IDFs conduct amongst Israeli Jews.
The Israeli news has been very sparse on the mainstream media and I’m not pro Israel, however the coverage even the BBC has been largely Hamas propaganda. That has been very effective in swinging public opinion against Israel, it clear that Israel will finish the job and win the war.
The big question is will they win the peace.
"Yet large numbers of population want a ceasefire which will leave Gaza in Hamas control and solve nothing."
Is this going to become another thread about Gaza? Or perhaps you are using the terrorist group Hamas to justify Islamophobia?
No,the difference is that Rwanda and Cambodia were civil wars with terrible consequences for it's citizens. Israel is fighting a terrorist group in Gaza, funded by the US and others but is not following the rules of war and killing many citizens who are not terrorists. Do you read any Israeli media, Katie 590? You should there's plenty of concern about the IDFs conduct amongst Israeli Jews.
grostuff In Europe, the US and the middle east, I would say over 50%
On the scale of wars and genocides Gaza is small there is much larger loss of life in other places currently. The difference is that all Islamic nations are sympathetic with Gaza and Al Jazeera has run a very effective propaganda campaign.
Hamas is a terrorist organization there are no nations that would tolerate their activity in their country, not even Iran.
Yet large numbers of population want a ceasefire which will leave Gaza in Hamas control and solve nothing.
I’d be surprised if most people don’t know much about the genocides in Cambodia or Rwanda. Maybe you’re right, but anyone in our age group who doesn’t know, either doesn’t care, or must have been walking around with their eyes and ears closed when these events were all over our news programmes. Admittedly the genocide in Cambodia was in the 70s, but Rwanda was much more recent. But then again, I’ve seen pro Palestinian protesters asked what they knew about the events of 07/10 and they were ignorant. So unfortunately maybe you’re right. How sad that is.
Demonstrations in Indonesia in support of the Palestinians.
www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/indonesians-rally-in-support-of-palestinians-in-gaza#:~:text=Pro%2DPalestinian%20demonstrations%20have%20taken,270%20million%20people%20following%20Islam.
growstuff
Oreo
Islam is a religion not a race foxie48
My comment was far from odd btw it has everything to do with bias and prejudice, and antisemitism is surfacing and overtaking any instances of prejudice against those of the Muslim faith.
I think nanna8 has it right when she said that most people don’t dislike Muslims only extremist Muslims.
The thing is tho that here in the UK it’s the extremist ones causing death and destruction, which leads to fear/ phobia which is the same thing.I don't think nanna8 has it right at all. CNN sponsored an international poll (I'll see if I can find it) and examined the attitude of thousands of people in different countries towards Muslims. From memory, about a quarter of the UK population showed anti-Muslim opinions, although admittedly that's much less than in Eastern Europe and some other "Western" countries. A significant number of people stated they wouldn't want a Muslim next door neighbour, although they weren't prepared to say why.
Perhaps nanna8 is speaking from the point of view of an Australian, which is interesting.
Australians come from so many countries and cultures.
Oreo
growstuff
M0nica
Only a small number of muslims are terrorists, but, as the protests all round the world have shown, many many more are passive supporters of their beliefs and enthusiasticaly share their rabid anti-semitism.
Hmmm ... not sure that's absolutely true MOnica. I agree that there rabid anti-semites have latched on to the latest protests about Palestine, but that's not the whole story. What percentage of the 1.9 billion Muslims worldwide do you reckon passively accept anti-semitism? My guess is that it's very few. I think you'd probably find that many Muslims (eg in Indonesia) don't even know that much about what's going on in the Middle East. We tend to be very Euro-centric in our knowledge.
When Corbyn was accused of being anti-semitic, I was shocked and initially didn't believe it, but then I spoke to my son, who was a university student at the time and he confirmed that many of his peers who identified as far left were anti-semitic. He was studying politics, so was interested in the reasoning. It was mainly the old tropes about Jews controlling the financial world and didn't only involve Muslims. Ironically, some of those people who originally saw themselves as "left" have now turned to the far right. Anne Marie Waters, who is currently a member of UKIP, is one of them (there are others).What percentage? Your guess is very few my guess is lots.
As neither of has any concrete evidence, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Many people in other parts of the world have no idea what's going on in the Middle East. Tribal warfare and genocide is almost normalised in some parts of the world, so they just think of it as a "local" disagreement. Not many people in the UK know much about the history of genocides in Cambodia or Rwanda. Other people show the same lack of interest in European or Middle East affairs.
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