The tory solution for prison overcrowding!

Iam64

We need modern prisons I agree but we send far too many people to prison, more than other Northern European counties and our reoffending rates are higher
As the party of law n order the govt has failed to update and improve
In the 70’s and 80’s there were campaigns to expand alternatives to custody. Instead we have a broken privatised probation service, minimal drug/alcohol services and increased homelessness
Awful

I agree.

As Maizie says, we need to treat the causes of crime. The majority of prisoners are either illiterate, mentally ill or ex-service.

The best way forward is not to put these in prison but find a way of improving their eductaional levels, treating their mental problems and having more effective support services for those coming out of our armed services.

England and Wales. 146

Wales: 177 per 100,000 in 2023 - the highest in Western Europe, according to reports, but that is a misleading statistic

Approximately one third (32%) of all people in prison in Wales in 2022 were from England.

Katie590

“Of course, there are some who will "diss" anyone and everyone, but generally speaking, I've seen quite a lot of sympathy for the kind of involvement that the police have to deal with, from dangerous dogs to protestors flouting the law.”

Really would you like to quote some examples.

Police are much more often accused of being heavy handed, corrupt, unsympathetic, not responding, not visible, overzealous

You made a generalised accusation, and I made a generalised rebuttal - and you're asking me for examples, but don't give any yourself?

Feel sorry for the police, who would want the job. More prevention and education, too many youngsters are on the wrong path before teenagers.

“Of course, there are some who will "diss" anyone and everyone, but generally speaking, I've seen quite a lot of sympathy for the kind of involvement that the police have to deal with, from dangerous dogs to protestors flouting the law.”

Really would you like to quote some examples.

Police are much more often accused of being heavy handed, corrupt, unsympathetic, not responding, not visible, overzealous

You can still be imprisoned for having a TV but no licence, and Council Tax arrears. It's one of those quirks that being unable to afford your Council Tax is classified as a criminal matter not a civil matter.

And yet, if you shoplift goods beneath a certain value the police may well not attend. Terriffic, innit?

Oh - the British establishment always think they are better than anyone else and never accept that they are not. Sad but true.

Yes, we should learn from other nations but we seem reluctant to do so. The Scandinavian approach is based on rehabilitation not punishment. As a result they have a low rate of recidivism. Also, the UK's poor housing and poor education must surely impact on people's lives and opportunities. These are not Acts of God.

Cossy

It’s quite simple though, imo, more police back out on the beat, re-open all the local police stations (haha most of them now new flats!), police to follow up on ALL crimes, unless a very good reason, only imprison those committing serious and violent crime, (for LONG sentences), everyone else should be given lengthy supervised community service and also given rehabilitation training, drug addicts and other addictions to receive rehab, probation services to be given much firmer rules about working with ex offenders. Our system is a mess, under funded, under staffed, like almost every other public service!!

I would also add that investing in youth services and education will help young people getting into gang crime.
Year ago I worked in a PRU that was very successful with turning round the lives of young offenders.
What happened? The centre was closed and all professional staff made redundant. The council was later taken into special measures for mismanaging its young people's services.
What a crazy world we live in!

Katie590

Since WW2 the prison population has increased by 400% ,the 1990s onwards has seen a steep increase. My own view is the general tolerance of petty indiscipline has led to a lack of consequences for everyday respect for authority of all kinds.

Even here on Gransnet there is very little respect for police or authority.

Even here on Gransnet there is very little respect for police or authority.

Can you enlarge on that? And what "authority" are you referring to?

Of course, there are some who will "diss" anyone and everyone, but generally speaking, I've seen quite a lot of sympathy for the kind of involvement that the police have to deal with, from dangerous dogs to protestors flouting the law.

Naturally, when a police officer turns out to be a 'bad apple', I don't believe we can be expected to feel anything other than "disrespect". And when some of our politicians - is that who / what you mean by authority - behave like braying donkeys at PMQs... well, they're hardly setting an example!

I do agree that as a society we've maybe become too tolerant of petty crime - anti-social behaviour - which is not only confined to bored teenagers on council estate - is a menace.

Since WW2 the prison population has increased by 400% ,the 1990s onwards has seen a steep increase. My own view is the general tolerance of petty indiscipline has led to a lack of consequences for everyday respect for authority of all kinds.

Even here on Gransnet there is very little respect for police or authority.

Prison reform trust statistics for 2023 - countries with the highest number of prisoners per 100,000 of the national population ;

England and Wales. 146
Scotland. 144
Portugal. 121
Spain. 113
France. 109
Luxembourg. 107
Italy. 99
Northern Ireland. 98

About 60% of released inmates reoffend within 2 years. In Norway it’s 20% within 2 years. Norway, like other Scandinavian countries imprisons fewer and operates a much less harsh regime, with higher numbers of officer to prisoner than we have.
Anyone with experience of the CJS knows we are getting it so wrong. Punitive approaches, longer sentences aren’t working. We need to learn from the research and greater successes of other countries.
We also need to fund good drug/alcohol/mental health services which will help in so many ways

Thank you Luckygirl for revealing the truth about "inside".

Here is the Times front page, the words are readable

www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/times-front-page-2024-05-22/

Prisoners in Europe per head of population (2022)
wp.unil.ch/space/files/2023/06/230626_Key-Findings-SPACE-I_Prisons-and-Prisoners-in-Europe-2022.pdf

This government closed many prisons as part of austerity, got rid of many experienced prison officers and probation officers, many prisons are actually run for profit by private companies, so cost cutting seen as more important than rehabilitation or education of the inmates. Some enlightened prisons have run training courses in catering, horticulture etc and it is shown that recidivism is lower from those who have passed such courses. It's got to be better than banging people up for 23 hours a day due to lack of staff, no wonder drugs and violence are rife in such conditions. Most people in prisons are there for non violent offences, many have psychiatric problems, drug and alcohol addictions , issues which maybe should be addressed before just letting them out on the streets again. Its a joke that conservatives market themselves as being the party of law and order.

MaizieD

Is, guess what?

Arrest fewer people😱

I thought it was a joke when I saw it on X/twitter, but there it is, on the front page of today's Times.

An internal operational briefing note for chief constables advised them to consider pausing “non-priority arrests” and to suspend operations that may trigger “large numbers of arrests”.

(sorry, can't give a link, I C & P'd from a screen shot)

So, to save the bother of releasing prisoners early to make space the tories think it's easier not to put them there in the first place...

Operations that might trigger large numbers of arrests surely cover activities that involve drugs, paedophile-rings, burglary gangs, etc?

... bit of a green light for them then?

All the above affect the 'little people'; local communities have to pick up the pieces when they are afraid their school-age children will be 'press-ganged' into drug networks, or lured by paedophiles operating in groups... when there are spates of burglaries in their areas. Some parts of the country are in an awful state - residents, especially the older / elderly, are afraid to go out at night...

So because any operations to tackle these organised crimes would most likely result in large-scale arrests - best to just let them get on with it?

Depressing. I'm not sure it will impress the voters, tho'.

Our prisons are a total mess. I know - I have a young relative in prison.

They are run by the drug barons - and drugs are freely available. Prisoners are threatened with violence if they do not give money to the powerful prisoners (I know this because my relative has been moved from one prison to another about 6 times for their safety from the thugs), the physical conditions are terrible, but - most important of all - the systems for planning discharge are pitiful.

If prisoners left prison with some prospect of leading a decent life and the proper support to turn their lives around our prisons would not be so full. As it is my relative has been out on licence several times but it fails every time as they are placed in a hostel full of violent drug pushers, and they have no proper support - to get a job, education, benefits, medical input etc.

This government likes to talk about simple solutions that have been planned on the back of an envelope - sadly some voters are taken in.

It’s nearly as good as Tony Blair’s idea of the police taking louts to the cash point 😂

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/816949.stm

MaizieD

Perhaps we could address the conditions that lead people into crime in the first place?

And repeal some of that draconian anti protest legislation.

Some people are just wrong uns MaizieD , anything for a quick £ rather than doing an honest days work. If you live in an area where crime is rife, it’s a hey ho let’s have a go attitude by some folks.

I imagine that so called white collar crimes have greed as motivations.

Assault/murder/domestic abuse happens across all walks of life.

Crime is not limited to those in deprived areas it permeates all strata’s of society.

I used to work in the Probation service and was involved with Community Service activities. The activities varied and many of the people liked actually doing something positive. Perhaps this is what is missing. Being bunged up in a prison with little to do just makes people worse - though some of course need to be carefully kept an eye on. There are not enough staff to undertake activities it would seem these days and teach them useful work. This Government doesn't seem to have much of a clue and I'm not surprised that there is a lack of staff in poor surroundings. Overcrowding puts staff in danger and doesn't give inmates the opportunities that might well help them. Another mess

And drones flying over some prisons dropping drugs, SIM cards. Jeez.

Maybe we send more to prison than other Northern European countries because we have a much bigger population IAm? It’s like comparing apples with pears. It used to be thought we had c.68 million living in the UK but this is now considered a conservative estimate. Pun intended. Tesco would probably know a more exact figure I believe …

And on top of what the OP says, early release too for many prisoners (lucky them eh?) to give a bit of wriggle room in the prisons. You couldn’t make it up.

Appalling.

Assuming this is true it is really pathetic. It will solve nothing. Can’t even be called sticking plaster.

MaizieD

Perhaps we could address the conditions that lead people into crime in the first place?

And repeal some of that draconian anti protest legislation.

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