Sir Keir and his manifesto

What’s the Tory timeline for doing this?

I see the pledge to reduce hospital waiting times to 18 weeks is only by the end of the next parliamentary term - ie five years from the start of the next parliament. Big deal. It’s always the headline which grabs attention.

My grammar school became a sixth form college.

GrannyRose15

MaizieD

But only the really good ones became independent. The rest of the grammar schools became bog standard comprehensives.

That's what I was arguing about 😁 The rest didn't all become comps

They did where I lived

I'm not doubting you; there aren't any grammar schools here in the NE, either, but it's erroneous to imply that the grammars either became comps or independents .

MaizieD

^But only the really good ones became independent. The rest of the grammar schools became bog standard comprehensives.^

That's what I was arguing about 😁 The rest didn't all become comps

They did where I lived

He could be blamed for selling off our gold reserves at Rock bottom prices, ultimately losing the Exchequer billions of pounds in profit.

The Financial Times didn't think it was a significant error

www.ft.com/content/5788dbac-7680-11e0-b05b-00144feabdc0

The BBC thinks it was 'controversial'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48177767

Easily forgotten when sniping at the Tories

But the tories then proceeded to b8gger up the economy by initiating completely unnecessary 'austerity' which we still suffer from in the precarious state of our public services.

Mamie perhaps you have not read the Labour Party’s statement- 20 percent raised will pay for x thousand new teachers for the State sector.
Of course these new teachers will have the opportunity to work in the private sector but we shall ignore that.
The notion that the private sector is gaining a freebie in not paying vat is interesting. Private education is not run for profit and is therefore entitled to charitable status. The State saves £8k a year on each secondary school pupil educated in the private system.

Didn't someone google very hard, varian and discover that Finland does have some private schools?

DiamondLily

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree with you Allsorts. I wonder where we would be today if Labour had had to deal with the aftermath of the financial crisis, covid, the war in Ukraine and vast numbers of migrants arriving in boats? Conveniently for them, we will never know but I think many would be singing a different tune today. It is always so much easier to criticise than to take action. Remember what happened to Churchill after he’d got the country through WW2?

Well, there’s a lot that the Tories can’t be blamed for happening - but they can be blamed for how they handled some of it.

But, Gordon Brown couldn’t be blamed for the global crash of 2008 - that didn’t stop the Tories publicly blaming him until now.😗

He could be blamed for selling off our gold reserves at Rock bottom prices, ultimately losing the Exchequer billions of pounds in profit.
Easily forgotten when sniping at the Tories.

But only the really good ones became independent. The rest of the grammar schools became bog standard comprehensives.

That's what I was arguing about 😁 The rest didn't all become comps

Finland has no private schools – and its pupils perform better than British children.

Finland ranked seventh in the world in OECD's student assessment chart in 2018, well above the UK and the United States, where there is a mix of private and state education

inews.co.uk/news/world/finland-no-fee-paying-schools-pupils-perform-better-privately-educated-british-2664640

From the Good Schools Guide

Grammar schools are state-funded, academically selective senior schools. The education a child receives at grammar school is paid for by the state unlike at private schools which provide education for a fee. There are currently 163 located in 36 English local authorities, with around 167,000 pupils between them. Northern Ireland has a further 67 but there are none in Wales or Scotland.

www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/choosing-a-school/grammar-schools/state-grammar-schoolshttps://www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/choosing-a-school/grammar-schools/state-grammar-schools

Some former Grammar Schools chose to become independents but, as you see, there are still a number of state funded ones.

As for claiming that the 'good' ones became independents, the single sex state grammar school I attended is still a state grammar school and for many years was one of the top state schools in England As is the boys' grammar school in the same town. Both are in the top 5% of state grammar schools.

(As you can imagine, they are very hard to get into)

(I confess I'm really not sure what the argument is about here 😕)

(P.S It wasn't a particularly brilliant school when I was there)

ronib

Mamie I am shocked by your reply.

Since when have the parents of children in fee paying schools been responsible for the funding of state schools?

This is crazy thinking.

I didn't say they were. The responsibility of government should be to fund the state system appropriately, not subsidise independent schools by giving them charitable status and exempting them from VAT.
I am not quite sure what you mean in your second sentence; did you not realise that state schools are funded by taxation which includes everyone including those who might opt to send their children elsewhere?
I think this is a topic for another thread.

Mamie

GSM and Ronib were you educated there at the same time? Because in my experience and that of my friends and neighbours they were pretty ordinary grammar schools of the time. I certainly wouldn't use the word excellent.

But only the really good ones became independent. The rest of the grammar schools became bog standard comprehensives. I know. I didn’t get in to the excellent grammar school my mother would have liked so had to settle for second best. The other school became fee paying and mine went downhill fast once our town went comprehensive. Still wonder how my life might have been different had the die fallen in my favour.

How about charging 20 percent tax on all private patient treatments to fund the NHS?

Mamie I am shocked by your reply.

Since when have the parents of children in fee paying schools been responsible for the funding of state schools?

This is crazy thinking.

ronib

Mamie why can’t you understand that this is a bad policy and won’t have the intended outcome? I guess basic economics wasn’t taught at Reigate Grammar School? Shame - obviously Starmer shares your handicap.

I guess because I have worked in education all my life, am a retired inspector of schools and understand the issues involved. The priority should be the proper funding of the state education for 93% of the population, not that of a small minority who will still be entitled to pay the full amount for private education if they so wish.

Mamie why can’t you understand that this is a bad policy and won’t have the intended outcome? I guess basic economics wasn’t taught at Reigate Grammar School? Shame - obviously Starmer shares your handicap.

ronib

*Mamie*You have missed the point - Reigate School now is considered to be excellent. Pupils from poorer backgrounds will not be able to afford increased fees on current £22k a year rising to £26400 but the children of oligarchs won’t have the slightest problem paying 20 per cent on £45k.
So the Uk will educate the foreign elite and not its own middle classes.

Surely the point is that Keir Starmer went through the normal state school system of the time in East Surrey, passing the 11+ and going to the local grammar school, which was Reigate for those of us who grew up in Oxted. What the school became afterwards is completely irrelevant.
I can assure you that the middle-classes of Oxted went to much posher schools than that. 😂

MamieYou have missed the point - Reigate School now is considered to be excellent. Pupils from poorer backgrounds will not be able to afford increased fees on current £22k a year rising to £26400 but the children of oligarchs won’t have the slightest problem paying 20 per cent on £45k.
So the Uk will educate the foreign elite and not its own middle classes.

GSM and Ronib were you educated there at the same time? Because in my experience and that of my friends and neighbours they were pretty ordinary grammar schools of the time. I certainly wouldn't use the word excellent.

It may have been a state school, but it wasn’t ordinary.

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree with you Allsorts. I wonder where we would be today if Labour had had to deal with the aftermath of the financial crisis, covid, the war in Ukraine and vast numbers of migrants arriving in boats? Conveniently for them, we will never know but I think many would be singing a different tune today. It is always so much easier to criticise than to take action. Remember what happened to Churchill after he’d got the country through WW2?

Well, there’s a lot that the Tories can’t be blamed for happening - but they can be blamed for how they handled some of it.

But, Gordon Brown couldn’t be blamed for the global crash of 2008 - that didn’t stop the Tories publicly blaming him until now.😗

How weird - Starmer received an excellent education for free at a school which changed its status to fee paying so no fees were charged for him and the same excellent education was given.
Fast forward to now - where fee paying schools will see a 20 per cent increase in fees thus making it very difficult for pupils from average families to receive a similar education to Starmer.
Liz Kendall did a very poor job of defending the policy on tv recently. I was surprised by her presentation and inability to argue - ex Cambridge graduate that she is.

Germanshepherdsmum

Went to Oxford for a second degree didn’t he? And we all know that ordinary state schools don’t become independent. The grammar school he attended had charitable status - it wasn’t any old state school was it?

Yes it was an ordinary state school until it opted out, when Starmer had been a pupil there for some time. If you passed the 11+ that was where you went from your state primary. Existing pupils did not pay fees when it became independent. I caught the same bus to school, though not at the same time. 😄