Last night’s election debate repeat of lies and talking over opposition.

I'll step back in here. I support Scottish Independence if that is what the people of Scotland want.
However, as the last Labour government handed more devolutionary powers over to Scotland then maybe that is where the power to move further to independence will lie.

Stephen Flynn is a great asset to the SNP but he represents them in Westminster, not in Holyrood, where he has little influence in a minority party. Therefore I was making a point that I wish he was in the Labour party, as he could do more especially when we are in power.

The SNP has controlled Holyrood for some time but now seems to be struggling.

Maybe I should have said all this in my original post but you can't anticipate getting answers on this forum!

paddyann54, I’ve no problem with your desire to be an independent country. My own view is it would be a pity to break up the UK, better together but no doubt you’ll say that’s because I’m English (it isn’t by the way)

I’ve noticed you always attribute the British Empire to the English - the evil oppressors. Scotland had significant involvement in colonising countries. Any brief look at your history confirms this

paddyann54

*keeping quiet* As the SNP's core policy is Independence why on earth would Stephen give it up...it was also a part of Labours original manifesto when the Labour Party was begun over 100 years ago.The then deputy of the party began his own Independence part which became the SNP .Read about it if you dont believe me.Robert Bontine Cunningham-Graham was a native of the area where I live and was the first MP with Nationalist beliefs.
Can I just add that many Scots feel disenfranchised by Labour and Tories who dont work FOR us as their strings are pulled by London based leaders .
We'll keep fighting for Independence which isn't "flogging a dead horse" by any means .The alternative is being bled dry by WM ,like India and around 60 other NOW INDEPENDENT countries.Its the biggest celebration world wide Independence from Westminster

You seem to want to ignore your country's part in Empire. Typical of Scots nats, blame it all on England. Carry on with your bigotry or enlighten yourself.
www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/enlightenment_and_empire/

keeping quiet As the SNP's core policy is Independence why on earth would Stephen give it up...it was also a part of Labours original manifesto when the Labour Party was begun over 100 years ago.The then deputy of the party began his own Independence part which became the SNP .Read about it if you dont believe me.Robert Bontine Cunningham-Graham was a native of the area where I live and was the first MP with Nationalist beliefs.
Can I just add that many Scots feel disenfranchised by Labour and Tories who dont work FOR us as their strings are pulled by London based leaders .
We'll keep fighting for Independence which isn't "flogging a dead horse" by any means .The alternative is being bled dry by WM ,like India and around 60 other NOW INDEPENDENT countries.Its the biggest celebration world wide Independence from Westminster

Thanks for responding MaizieD.
I think many will grit their teeth and vote Labour despite misgivings.

Both main parties seem to be offering bribes to the electorate by the minute.
I think my vote will go to the Greens this time, despite the fact that I have been a lifelong Labour voter and that there may be tactical voting by Libs and Labour to try and oust the much disliked long standing Tory MP in my constituency.

I just can’t bring myself to vote for a Labour Party is that is Labour in name only, and I don’t think I’m the only one.
We will see!

It looks as though Starmer is due to announce a “triple lock tax promise”, in their manifesto, that there will be no rises in income tax, National insurance, or VAT, for 5 years:

news.sky.com/story/labour-to-pledge-no-increase-in-big-three-taxes-in-triple-lock-promise-13150082

The £2,000 is a big Tory lie repudiated by the Treasury's top official and they should be ashamed to keep repeating it but they know a lot of voters don't or can't follow the detail. Straight out of the Buffoon's playbook. Parties? What parties?

Farzanah

Do you honestly believe MaizieD that once in power Labour will morph from the neoliberal party that it has become, into a transformational party for the benefit of the whole country, or continue with more of the same, which benefits the few?

That's a difficult one, Farzanah, especially as you must be well aware of my economic beliefs, which are Keynesian at base, i.e you spend your way out of an economic slump, which stimulates economic activity, with all that follows on from said economic activity.

I would be happy for Labour to do that, but to say it in advance would be suicidal as far as the election is concerned, for the reason I gave earlier.

I'm as aware of the evil of neoliberal economic orthodoxy as you are

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

I’ve listened to Rachel Reeves and Wes Streeting and I do not believe that there is any intention of changing the status quo.
Taxing Wealth to invest in public services, I don’t think so!
Investing in the NHS? Streeting believes in private health care. Not a squeak about a fairer social care system.
Positive investment and taxing those who can afford it would win votes.

I believe they care for the many and will do their best in very difficult circumstances. Progress will be slow.

Doodledog

I can't speak for Maisie, but I live in hope of that, yes.

As I, and I’m sure many others, do too.

I can't speak for Maisie, but I live in hope of that, yes.

Do you honestly believe MaizieD that once in power Labour will morph from the neoliberal party that it has become, into a transformational party for the benefit of the whole country, or continue with more of the same, which benefits the few?

It may not be the country some of us want but while how is Labour going to pay for it?' remains a central element if tory campaigning and the right wing media, and people believe the stupid lie that Labour crashed the economy when last in power , Labour is hardly likely to be proposing radical massive investment at this stage.

Dinahmo

Doodledog Please explain. I don't understand your comment:

*eg when he said he identified with working people being frustrated at having to pay tax to support those who don't want to work, and then proposed the French medical system which is based on just that system.

One minute he said something about tax, and how he understood how working people resented having to keep paying more and more tax when others chose not to work (I paraphrase) and the next he was extolling European systems where those who 'can afford it' pay for medical treatment (whether directly or via insurance), and those who can't get it free. That seems like a contradiction, as in both cases those who work are paying and those who aren't are not.

My point, though, was that although I don't agree with his politics, and don't think he is always consistent, he is a good speaker and can 'read the room' better than most of the others.

Farzanah

I am sick with both LP and Tories vying with each other to convince the electorate that their party will be the one for lower taxes.
This happens at every election.

What I, and many others I am sure, would prefer to hear is a plan to invest in our broken public and health services after a decade of austerity.

Inequality is growing, food banks are now the norm, even for families who are working.
Child poverty is increasing, as is poor mental health.

Is this honestly the type of country we really want?

It’s not the country I want, no!

I am sick with both LP and Tories vying with each other to convince the electorate that their party will be the one for lower taxes.
This happens at every election.

What I, and many others I am sure, would prefer to hear is a plan to invest in our broken public and health services after a decade of austerity.

Inequality is growing, food banks are now the norm, even for families who are working.
Child poverty is increasing, as is poor mental health.

Is this honestly the type of country we really want?

Doodledog Please explain. I don't understand your comment:

*eg when he said he identified with working people being frustrated at having to pay tax to support those who don't want to work, and then proposed the French medical system which is based on just that system.

Problem was partly that Rayner and Mordaunt couldn’t deviate much from what their leaders said two days before and there was no news. The questions were broadly the same, so From that viewpoint it would have been better not to have them at all😃

Anyway, Theyshouldn’t have been placed next to one another, the positions almost invited the pointing and talking. Agree that Rayner did well in the circs.

Wholly agree re Flynn and Denya

Visgir1

The whole thing was a farce. Twitter has Mordaunt and Reynor pictured laughing and smiling together. Probably both went together for a k large glass of wine.
Farage well..
The others can say what they wanted, it's not going to make a big difference.

They did. They are very friendly, off camera. It’s just about the politics in these sort of debates.

Mordaunt, though, is obviously campaigning to lead the Tories after the election.

Surely it's good that Mordaunt and Rayner were able to shake hands and smile together?

The whole thing was a farce. Twitter has Mordaunt and Reynor pictured laughing and smiling together. Probably both went together for a k large glass of wine.
Farage well..
The others can say what they wanted, it's not going to make a big difference.

IMO Flynn was the clear winner for the SNP and the only one to mention Brexit in this ill tempered debate, with the Green Party Carla Denya coming a close second. Mordaunt and Rayner were both embarrassing, and In fact the parties not realistically in the running for power had the most convincing arguments.
Farage?……….least said.

What are the Tories doing? If they wanted to appear more arrogant and out of touch they couldn't be doing more.

Mordaunt was dreadful, and Rayner kept her cool very well in the circumstances, I thought. Daisy Cooper came across well, although I'd never vote LibDem, and I liked Carla Denyer's 'Well, that was dignified' comment. It must be easier being on these things if you are over going to have to stand by what you say though.

Much as I loathe Farage and all he stands for, he is a good speaker. He knows which buttons to press, and even when he contradicts himself* he sounds convincing. As history shows, however, it's dangerous when a gift for oratory and a knack for populism sweeps people into power.

*eg when he said he identified with working people being frustrated at having to pay tax to support those who don't want to work, and then proposed the French medical system which is based on just that system.

As I said on the thread about the ITV 'debate', I wish the techies would turn off the microphones of all except the person whose turn it is to speak. That would stop the interruptions and shouting down, would give people a chance to refute some of the lies, and make the whole thing calmer.

I didn’t watch it, although I’m very interested in politics and politician I’m sick and tired of their rudeness in debates, always interrupting and talking over others and shouting!

Farage is an abomination and a very fervent s**t stirrer too, for him it’s just another chance to be on the telly and he loves every second! Who knows, 8th time (un)lucky?