Starmer's stubbornness

GrannyGravy13

LizzieDrip

No GrannyGravy I’m not in the slightest bit confused. Please refer to my post of 13.07 - they explain it perfectly!

My understanding is that, when private schools have to pay VAT the amount of money the customer (parent) will have to pay, will increase.

Call it whatever you want but the bottom line is, the customer will pay more - correct?

If this is not correct, and the customer won’t have to pay more, then what the f* is all the moaning about.

Now I give up🤷‍♀️

I have no idea where you are coming from LizzieDrip

Of course the parents will be paying more, 20% more in VAT.

This is not an increase in fees which go towards their child/rens education it is a Government tax on school fees which trots straight off to HMRC.

And input tax recovery?

LizzieDrip I have owned a VAT registered company for over 40 years (and still do)

seeking to absorb some of the VAT

How do you suppose that will happen?

LizzieDrip

No GrannyGravy I’m not in the slightest bit confused. Please refer to my post of 13.07 - they explain it perfectly!

My understanding is that, when private schools have to pay VAT the amount of money the customer (parent) will have to pay, will increase.

Call it whatever you want but the bottom line is, the customer will pay more - correct?

If this is not correct, and the customer won’t have to pay more, then what the f* is all the moaning about.

Now I give up🤷‍♀️

I have no idea where you are coming from LizzieDrip

Of course the parents will be paying more, 20% more in VAT.

This is not an increase in fees which go towards their child/rens education it is a Government tax on school fees which trots straight off to HMRC.

GrannyGravy just in case you can’t be bothered, here’s the post again. You’ll see they use the term ‘pass on’ to the parents regarding the cost of the VAT:

“This from CT: Accountant Advisors (online):

“ Will parents be expected to pay the full amount of VAT?

This will depend on the school.

Independent schools will have to become registered for VAT following this legislation, so there will be a possibility for schools to recover VAT on capital and running costs. In turn, this could allow independent schools to absorb some of the VAT cost to be passed on to parents. Based on our understanding from working closely with private education clients, we understand that some schools are seeking to absorb some of the VAT cost and therefore the increase in fees will not likely be as high as 20%.”

No GrannyGravy I’m not in the slightest bit confused. Please refer to my post of 13.07 - they explain it perfectly!

My understanding is that, when private schools have to pay VAT the amount of money the customer (parent) will have to pay, will increase.

Call it whatever you want but the bottom line is, the customer will pay more - correct?

If this is not correct, and the customer won’t have to pay more, then what the f* is all the moaning about.

Now I give up🤷‍♀️

state not stare 😡

Iam64

Private schools are not charities, they’re businesses. There’s a particularly clear divide here between those of us who support Labour’s proposals and those who don’t
To dismiss it a as the politics of envy says a lot about those who see private schools as sacrosanct and state schools as awful

I do not think state schools are awful, and have never said that.

We have used both stare and private education.

When committing to private schooling we budgeted for the entire period of schooling, to suddenly have an increase of 20% could have meant disruption to our child’s schooling.

As for supporting Labour’s policies, I have no faith that the tax £’s gained would be ring fenced for state schools.

Private schools are not charities, they’re businesses. There’s a particularly clear divide here between those of us who support Labour’s proposals and those who don’t
To dismiss it a as the politics of envy says a lot about those who see private schools as sacrosanct and state schools as awful

LizzieDrip

^VAT is added to the fees invoice, they will not have a choice of how much VAT they charge.^

But GrannyGravy they will have the choice of how much of the cost of that VAT they pass on to the customer.

The more the school chooses to pass on, the more the customer will pay - isn’t that what all the moaning is about

Please refer to my post of 13.07 today, from an accountant advisor.

I think you are confused.

There is no option to pass on as you put it.

VAT is a tax due to HMRC.

VAT is added to the fees invoice, they will not have a choice of how much VAT they charge.

But GrannyGravy they will have the choice of how much of the cost of that VAT they pass on to the customer.

The more the school chooses to pass on, the more the customer will pay - isn’t that what all the moaning is about

Please refer to my post of 13.07 today, from an accountant advisor.

🤦‍♀️ I give up

The VAT would still be 20% on the taxable supply!

Sorry, should have read as much as the original fees plus 20% VAT.

Exactly, LizzieDrip, if the school once registered for Vat can claim that back on their running and capital costs surely this means fees could be lowered and therefore the Vat would be lower and the final bill would not be as much s the full 20%.

LizzieDrip

^No, it is not. But the parents must be invoiced for VAT on so much of the service provided is subject to VAT^ GSM

OK. The school must invoice the customer regarding the amount of VAT - as with any business transaction.

But the school can - if it so chooses - absorb some of the cost of the VAT. It does not necessarily have to pass on all the 20% cost to the customer by raising fees.

Back to my original point. If customers are unhappy that their school fees are going up by 20%, challenge the headteacher about it. Don’t expect the government to provide you with a tax break!

State schools’ funding has been slashed for years - we’ve just had to get on with it!

LizzieDrip where do you get schools raising their fees ?

VAT is added to the fees invoice, they will not have a choice of how much VAT they charge.

If customers are unhappy that their school fees are going up by 20%, challenge the headteacher about it.
Just a small, but important word of advice. Don't challenge the Headteacher, they have enough to deal with and are not experts in finance. Ask for a meeting with the Bursar for the correct explanation. They have been prepared for long before Starmer.

Remember that parents who send children to independent schools also pay tax towards the funding of state schools, but don’t use state facilities.

No, it is not. But the parents must be invoiced for VAT on so much of the service provided is subject to VAT GSM

OK. The school must invoice the customer regarding the amount of VAT - as with any business transaction.

But the school can - if it so chooses - absorb some of the cost of the VAT. It does not necessarily have to pass on all the 20% cost to the customer by raising fees.

Back to my original point. If customers are unhappy that their school fees are going up by 20%, challenge the headteacher about it. Don’t expect the government to provide you with a tax break!

State schools’ funding has been slashed for years - we’ve just had to get on with it!

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny you are wrong in this instance.

There were so many interactions between the independent schools, local schools and community, too many to mention.

Not in every area, we have one proper prep school and several primary independent schools (3-11 or 3-13 and in one case 4-16)

They very much interact with EACH other. Have sporting competitions between Independent Schools, and often the bursaries and scholarships are partial not full.

I am well aware of the many differences between the quality and education in these local Independent schools and state primaries in the same area.

My eldest child attended the prep school, with a partial scholarship based on ability. He went there, between 3-11, then onto our local (state) Grammar School.

My three younger children all attended a local, large primary school (4 class entry, Approx 750 pupils), then all went onto a state selective comprehensive.

So I have personal experience, particularly at Primary level. Fundamentally, the classes were very small, 10-12 pupils in a class, as opposed to 30 in the state primary, many more opportunities for extra curriculum activities, better and far more expensive school trips. Less behavioural issues due to much smaller classes and termly exams in every subject and competition very much encouraged.

My son was happy and safe there.

Our other children were happy and safe in their state junior school. I became a school governor to understand the school and education system and found the teaching staff, on the whole, to be very hard working, competent and caring.

I never felt my younger children received a “second-best” education despite the many differences.

My first child was from a different father and almost 13 years older than my next child, so no resentment.

But it hasn't decreased numbers applying for private school places, as was claimed it would, at length and frequency one past threads, as evidenced by the reference I quoted above, at 10.20.37.

On the Politics of Envy: out of interest, I googled this and it came up with a whole series of quote, books, articles, all by right wing thinkers seeking to discredit this seeking a fairer society. It's nothing but a biased political trope.

Germanshepherdsmum

Obviously you don’t know how much assistance independent schools give to state schools children whose parents can’t afford fees Glorianny. Unfortunately you don’t understand the legal meaning of charitable status. I have already posted a link. Independent schools do not pretend to be charities. If registered with the Charity Commission they are charities.

This.

LizzieDrip

So, it comes down to semantics i.e. ‘they must invoice the customer.

It would appear that clever accounting (at which I’m sure private schools are very adept) will enable them to actually absorb some of the VAT cost rather than passing all 20% directly onto the customer - should they choose to do so.

Absorbing some of the cost is not, in itself, illegal then GSM.

Any VAT registered entity must by U.K. law charge VAT at the appropriate rate on goods/services provided, no ifs no buts.

LizzieDrip

So, it comes down to semantics i.e. ‘they must invoice the customer.

It would appear that clever accounting (at which I’m sure private schools are very adept) will enable them to actually absorb some of the VAT cost rather than passing all 20% directly onto the customer - should they choose to do so.

Absorbing some of the cost is not, in itself, illegal then GSM.

No, it is not. But the parents must be invoiced for VAT on so much of the service provided is subject to VAT.

Try again

business/school has paid £20 VAT
Same business/school has charged £40 VAT

VAT due to HMRC £20

Freya5

Perhaps State schools should aim to bring their standards up to private schools, this will need more financial input, more schools, so smaller classes, more teachers, but hey it's easier to bring hundreds more children into state schools, more overcrowding than already is, for what, it seems is an ideological move, rather than a sensibly reasoned one.

State schools have been starved of funds by consecutive Conservative governments for years. Why should people care about the education of children that can’t go to private schools when they have an alternative? And let’s blame this on immigrants ( which I assume is what you are implying?); let’s blame everything on immigrants. And let’s not forget the Conservative government ( or Brexit) haven’t reduced those numbers have they?