Starmer's stubbornness

I don’t idolise the Conservative Party MayBee and never have - if I did I would probably be a member. But I very much dislike what Labour stand for. I voted for Blair. The Labour Party today is once again a party which will do all it can to punish those it perceives to have wealth. I would not call working parents scrimping and saving to give their child the best education they can, but they, and their children, will be the victims of this policy - for those with real wealth it will be water off a duck’s back.

The universities are in a financial mess. The impact of changes for foreign students will add to that

The Universities are asking Labour to put up tuition fees according to the Financial Times, “to keep their ship afloat”.

For heavens sake Labour aren’t out to get anyone with money. But they are out to get the people that were given all those contracts during the pandemic for things that they weren’t able to produce because the government had to give the contracts out to their mates. Imo the Conservative Party that you seem to idolise disappeared when Boris Johnson became their leader; they are not the same party. I mean, several of them are currently under investigation for putting bets on re the date of the election because they had inside information. It is now a party that is rotten at it’s core and I feel sorry for the decent Conservatives MP’s that escaped Johnson’s cull.

Interesting to hear about your expedience and to learn from your knowledge Joseann. I certainly hope that this petty plan doesn’t succeed in the way Labour hope. Though of course if it doesn’t bring in the money they expect there will be tax rises elsewhere. The next obvious target imo is inheritance tax. Their old Labour jealousy of anyone who is perceived to have money is very clear.

I wonder how much your school's business rates were Joseann? Possibly you paid more than Eton
Among the beneficiaries are Eton, whose bill for business rates would have been in excess of £4m, but is, in fact, only £821,000.

I think there's going to be an awful lot of educational providers caught up in this when they shouldn't be. Where do we stand on nurseries attached to private schools for example?

One option I see is for independent schools to start up a new named company and to put all childcare under this heading in order to avoid the 20% tax. Plus any other loopholes, as mentioned earlier.

DH is out sailing at the moment, but I'm sure he reckoned that, with creative accounting, the actual figure subject to the increased tax could be as little as a third of the fees collected by the school. Keir Starmer might need to have a bit of a rethink if he is expecting £xmillions from the full fees collected by the schools.

No one knows exactly how this will be administered yet. Maybe even the party wanting to implement it will need a bit of back tracking in certain areas. Interesting times.

Joseann

I certainly did pay business rates on the school property Glorianny. Initially, because we lived in the building as a family, it was split business/residential. When the school needed to expand, we moved out and bought a bed house. From what I remember the entire school building was subject to business rates

Then you probably didn't have charitable status. Places that do like Eton get a reduction in their rates, it is usually around 80% but it can be up to 100%
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/664714f7b7249a4c6e9d36c4/Opposition_Costing_-_Business_Rates_Private_Schools_HMT_version__004_.pdf

Why should Eton not pay?

"What next, VAT on university tuition fees? VAT on charges for vocational education? Where exactly is the difference?"

These two are open to all irrespective of income.

The same is not the case in private education. I wholeheartedly agree that charitable status is not appropriate.

*a new house not bed?

I certainly did pay business rates on the school property Glorianny. Initially, because we lived in the building as a family, it was split business/residential. When the school needed to expand, we moved out and bought a bed house. From what I remember the entire school building was subject to business rates

Eton is at the very extreme of independent schooling and isn’t representative.

What next, VAT on university tuition fees? VAT on charges for vocational education? Where exactly is the difference?

I think you must know I agree with Labour on this

Iam64

True, not all children fill their potential at schools. Most parents do the best they can for their children - as Maddyone’s son and Gloriannie did

Which is fine. But I still don't see why the taxpayer should fund Eton.

True, not all children fill their potential at schools. Most parents do the best they can for their children - as Maddyone’s son and Gloriannie did

That's just a reply to someone who had already claimed personal experience and the fact that my experiences are very different. I don't often use personal experiences. One of my sons struggled massively in the state system he is severely dyslexic and probably ADHD, although there was no such diagnosis when he was at school. I don't think he would have fared much better in the private sector.
One of the things I did do was establish and change policies in schools and my LEA which would benefit children who came after him.
He did OK in the end has an MA. Some children just don't flourish in schools

GrannyGravy13

Try again

business/school has paid £20 VAT
Same business/school has charged £40 VAT

VAT due to HMRC £20

That is how I understand it, so the school will be able to offset the VAT they have incurred on equipment, services etc. Just like any business.

Glorianny some major public schools are masters of non conformity and independent thinking whatever that means given the current exam structure. You have based your argument on your personal family and life is very wide!

My experience with LAC and adopted children means I recognise their needs for stability and to avoid disappearing in education.
Your comment about non compliance and independent thinking is imo rather insensitive and confrontational in the circumstances Maddyone describes

maddyone

I wonder what choice you would have made if you’d adopted a child and was facing the situation my son faced with his child? Would your politics have been so inflexible that you’d have left your young adopted child in a situation that was leading to a failure to thrive? There were no other state schools in the area that were in the position to offer a school place, and in any case the state CofE school was renowned for it’s quality and it’s nurturing, but some things are beyond control. My son leans to the left in his politics, but thought his child’s stability more important than principle.

GG you’re right, school is an extension of family life, especially for adopted children.

I really don't know your circumstances. I do know that finding a school that is suitable for any child is sometimes difficult. But it isn't made any easier by private schools not paying their taxes. I think I would have fought for a place in a suitable state school. Many schools refuse children at first but can be made to accept them on appeal.

As I said before I have no problem with people paying for education I just don't think tax breaks should be given to million pound businesses because they claim to be a charity.

On a personal basis my 3DSs would all have hated a private school. And so would I. We have a family history of independent thinking and non compliance with authority.

Joseann

Sadly, it is the small, often privately owned, independent schools, like I presume GNs often talk about, that will fare worse with the 20% VAT increase. You wouldn't have been envious of the buildings my school was housed in, Glorianny. It had no hall, no canteen, no games facilities at all, just a small garden. We bought into expensive outside facilities for such things. But the 90 children on roll flourished, and many are still family friends. Wellbeing came first, and as mentioned, financial assistance was readily available. I could have been early £20k a year better off myself by not giving away free places, but that was not part of my strong Christian ethos.

But Joseann many of the smaller schools are not charities anyway and are paying tax already. It isn't the level playing field you seem to imagine. Was yours a charity? Did you pay6 business rates on the property?

Yes Joseann you are a breath of fresh air

Noticeably no response when asked how she would have coped/managed my son’s situation!

I meant I'm not the only breath of fresh air! We are many on this front!

ronib

Joseann you are a breath of fresh air……

Thank you, but really I'm not ronib. I'm just concerned that private schools are getting an unfair slating on these threads from posters who have little knowledge of how they operate.