Starmer's stubbornness

ronib the Tory policy to ‘reform welfare’ in order to fund tax cuts, strikes at the heart of those at the very bottom of the pyramid. They have already proposed some of these ‘reforms’ i.e. making the PIP process more difficult.

You’re right though, they’re not talking much about that during the election campaign. God help the disabled and vulnerable if the Tories win this election!

LizzieDrip am unsure that there’s much thought about the bottom of the pyramid in this election apart from Reform’s attempt to get more people working and taxes starting at £20k and not administering benefits to top up taxed salary. A bit quiet on the subject elsewhere?

Well let’s start with better living standards and conditions for the bottom of the pyramid then i.e. the majority = the aim of a Labour government. A good starting point👍

LizzieDrip from one point of view, equality for all is a myth. But we are talking in such broad terms that it’s difficult to pin down what we’re talking about. But by baby steps I mean an improvement in living standards and conditions for the bottom of the pyramid but a completely equal society? Well communism hasn’t achieved it. It’s not possible.

ronib exactly, baby steps.

I’m not suggesting the ‘unattainable’ can be achieved overnight, but if we don’t start, we won’t achieve anything. I don’t consider it dangerous - why do you think it’s dangerous to strive for better? I dare say those striving for universal suffrage were told it was ‘impossible’🤷‍♀️ Should they have said ‘ok, we’ll give up the fight then’.

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

Iam64 it’s very hot and humid tonight so maybe fundamental beliefs best wait….

I don’t think we are at cross purposes. I believe our fundamental beliefs are a long way apart

Iam64 I think we are at cross purposes. If anything my experience is very wide and unusual.

Ok ronib, I’m backing out now. It isn’t about basic budgeting, it seems you’ve no experience of reality

Iam64 seems quite self evident that all types of people might struggle if basic budget management is not a priority. A friend has no stop button when it comes to spending. Definitely middle class but so what?

🙊 🙊 🙊

ronib

Glorianny yes I used to think that. I think it’s maybe a bit misguided? The middle classes might be struggling a bit to make ends meet…

You don’t think what I suppose you’d see as ‘lower than middle clssses might struggle to make ends meet?

As for your belief that not every disadvantaged child will become disadvantaged in adult life. Of course some children will have the resilience to get through and build good lives. I know some of them, either friends or children now in their 50’s I knew as deprived and abused children. Some have survived but not easily.

Joseanne , my sil was I special case I’m sure. She asked my husband (her own husband’s brother) how he could live in the north, surrounded by all those depressing northern towns. I could write the book on her snobbery and shallow mindedness so I’ll stop.

LizzieDrip I think it’s very dangerous to want the impossible. Baby steps ….

why would you want equality for all? It’s unattainable given the present structures in society

ronib I find in incomprehensible that one wouldn’t want equality for all

I refuse to accept that because something appears ‘unattainable’ we should give up on it. History shows us that the seemingly ‘unattainable’ can be achieved e.g. universal suffrage; same sex marriage to name just two.

I can never understand people like your sister in law, Iam64, they obviously don't get the whole ethos of a private education. When people asked where my children went to school, I just used to say Taunton and let them think what they liked. Same as when I was Head of a prep school and on holiday I was asked what I did , I just said something vague until they put two and two together.
To me, children are children whatever, and people are just people, whoever.

Germanshepherdsmum

Anything wrong with social climbing, or should we all know our place and stay there?

Like Angela Rayner?

Iam64 life is not so black and white. Not every disadvantaged child will become disadvantaged in adulthood and vice versa.

Why wouldn’t we aspire to a
More equal society? Some children are so disadvantaged it ensures they’ve little if any opportunity to build a better life. That’s shameful

LizzieDrip why would you want equality for all? It’s unattainable given the present structures in society.

Thanks Joseann for clarifying. My sister in law was horrified we were sending our 4 and 5 year olds to the local primary school. “You won’t know who they’re mixing with”. Yes o will, was my response, they’ll be mixing with other children from our neighbourhood. Like they do at Rainbows and Brownies and when we go to our local park.
Her snobbery was extraordinary. Her children went to private schools of course

Being accused of envy when one wants equality for all is just another attempt at gaslighting

Agreed👏👏👏

When one is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

I’ve posted this previously; no-one has yet argued against it🤷‍♀️

I guess I mean social hierarchy. Trying to climb up the social ladder in order to gain higher status in the pecking order.

Germanshepherdsmum

I got where I did by what I knew, as did my son and his wife. There never has been such a thing as equal opportunities in my experience.

Well, there should be. It isn’t about social climbing but about every child being able to fulfill it’s true potential.I remember back in the day when we did the 11+ kids were made to feel like failures at the age of 11. In fact, we had a two tier system even before that with the school putting those of us they thought would pass the 11+ in a different class. Not sure what it was like in other parts of the country but I had a better education than my classmates that went to the local comprehensive. Albeit having to put up with being ridiculed about my fathers job ( he was a labourer) something I’ve never really got over.

they and their parents don’t fixate on hierarchy
It’s hot, which may be slowing me down but what does this mean?