James Timpson, newly elected prisons minister says only one third of prisoners should definitely be in prison.

I’m sure raising funds would be easy, a fine fairly meaningless as a result

Sentencing Council on line says suspended sentences can only be used if the custodial sentence is no longer than two years

As a suspended sentence is a prison sentence, it can’t be combined with community service.

In the light of the current plans to reduce the prison population, a heavy fine and community service sounds better.
My only question about the fine is whether they’d launch a just give petition to pay their fines.

I loathe just stop oil, but I dont think they should have been imprisoned at all.

I was shocked by the sentences then I considered the financial and social costs of their actions. If they aren’t imprisoned will they continue the protests
If so it could be argued they pose a threat
It does seem heavy for first offences
A suspended sentence combined wit community service ?

Just checked which ones they were. They were the ones that stopped traffic on motorways. 5 jailed for max 4 yr sentences.
(Reuters)
Alternatives? something which will make them put something back into the community for substantial time?

And now, some of the Just Stop Oil activists have been imprisoned for a total of 21 years.

What do GNs think would be a more appropriate punishment?
(I don’t know)

I suppose it depends on how being viable is assessed. Remploy wasn’t profit making but imo it fits the category of meeting an identified need. Society has far fewer factories, mills etc where people could earn a small wage sweeping the floors or undertaking repetitive tasks where speed isn’t essential. Work in a sheltered environment provides multiple benefits for some in our communities.

Three of the Sure Start centres I knew well were always busy, no difficulty in engaging parents from 0-5. They were in areas of high deprivation, one described as a centre of excellence. All 3 closed when austerity gradually led to their different councils could no longer meet all statutory duties so preventive work ended. The research leading to Sure Start was clear on early years intervention leading to long term improvements in outcomes

Reading about Remploy branches, evidently both Labour and Conservatives closed them as they were not viable. Efforts were made to get disabled people into employment outside.
Like the solution to avoid incarceration, they needed/need homes, skills, and a "life".

With the prison population, where to start?

The reality is investment early is more likely to be life improving in the youngsters who are going off the rails

So we should start early.
What sort of investment? What do GNs think would be useful to improve life for youngsters who are going off the rails?

How early and how to do that?

Surestart catered for 0-5.
One reason it was successful, was because parents were involved in their children’s lives.
Where centres closed because of lack of use, do you think that was because parents chose not to go, or couldn’t go because they had to work or they didn’t find it useful?

Current help centres cater for those and older age groups, and are usually well advertised through school or libraries , but still only benefit those who use them.

More and more schools have Learning Mentors or Pastoral support for children with a variety of needs, social and educational.

What else might GN’s suggest?

Anyone can opt into a life of crime, whatever their background, but children opting out of education with or without parental knowledge often become disaffected teens, roaming the streets, without jobs and turning to crime.

How do we avoid that?

Grantanow

If the Dutch have a way of addressing the issues which give rise to crime as well as ways to avoid incarceration, let’s hope the government investigate and take note.

I hope Timpson takes notice of the Dutch approach which sees far fewer incarcerations than in the UK otherwise we shall continue building expensive prisons which fail to rehabilitate.

Indeed ... let us hope their voices will not fall on deaf ears.

So say all the people who have or do work in children’s services, probation, schools, health etc Lucky.

One of the additional problems with funding prisons/probation and community interventions is that the "ordinary public" usually don't see why the "bad boys" get funding when others miss out.

I am suggesting that, as well as having more enlightened policies for dealing with offenders, we go back a stage and fund social/health policies that benefit all families BEFORE someone goes off the rails.

I agree that closing Remploy was another poor decision. Count pennies and ignore the positives it achieved
NotSpaghetti raises the important point that there is often understandable resentment that ‘naughty boys and girls’ get eg outings/group work whereas well behaved youngsters lack interesting organised activities
The reality is investment early is more likely to be life improving in the youngsters who are going off the rails

We bought Remploy garden furniture years ago from a local workshop. I had connections there through work and it always struck me as a place of joy to be honest.

There is a good example of care in the community near me in France. It is a village called Claire Vivre and was built after WW1 for men harmed by gas. They would stay there for treatment and their families could stay with them.

Nowadays it is used for people with many forms of handicap. Some people are there permanently and others are retraining following accidents at work for example.

There are three enterprises. Two are large scale nurseries, one for gardens and one for house plants. The other makes a variety of garden furniture.

The village is quite large and comprises a number of houses and flats, some of which are holiday lets. There is a cinema, a restaurant, a shop and a laundry service.

Everyone in the surrounding area knows about Claire Vivre because it holds a large plant sale each spring but is also open for sales at other times.

I expect most of you will remember Remploy, the furniture factory set up up in 1946 for disabled workers. We have a chest of drawers here.

It grew to 94 factories but in 2008 Labour closed 29 and in 2012 the coalition govt announced that the remaining ones would be closed or sold.

Shame on both govts for doing this.

One of the additional problems with funding prisons/probation and community interventions is that the "ordinary public" usually don't see why the "bad boys" get funding when others miss out.
Unfortunately this feeling of injustice is quite deep. I've been involved in these discussions both through work and in a voluntary capacity some years ago and know it to be true.

We, as a country need to reconcile the idea that in order to help ourselves (i.e. society at large), we DO need to help the minority of people who break the law - the drug user and the burglar and the person with the knife. They need homes, skills, and a "life". If they don't feel part of ordinary life they will always live outside the law.

NotSpaghetti

Jannipans that has become quite difficult post-Brexit.

There is a world outside the EU.
Prisoners can be sent back to their home country under a prisoner transfer agreement.

Jannipans that has become quite difficult post-Brexit.

I heard an ex con on the radio at the weekend. He had been sentenced to 2 years for mortgage fraud. He was supposed to go to an open prison but no room and so he was banged up in a cell with category B prisoners. 3 to a cell meant for 1.

He said community service would have better for him. He accepted that should be punished. I thought that was quite brave because he would be visible to friends and neighbours.

We have to hope that our new government recognises the situation that Iam has outlined and is prepared to think long term and recognise the investment that is needed to effect change ... which will be gradual. We as a society need to stop demandig quick fixes and give governments a chance to build change.
It is a flaw in democracy that in order to get votes you have to promise the magic wand touch. I hope this government will start to build some policies based on integrity and realism rather than knee jerk for public show.
Prison populations reflect public ills .... lack of support for young parents, poor education/mental health services/housing etc. They tell us where to start in creating a better fairer society. I hope that Timpson will be saying this loud and clear so that other governments than the prison service can hear.

The Dutch have reduced their prison population by almost half, by replacing prison with rehabilitation.
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/12/why-are-there-so-few-prisoners-in-the-netherlands

Luckygirl3

Drugs are traded in prisons all the time and that is where some people begin their addiction. Everyone knows it is happening.: the prisoners, the staff, the pribation service.

How can this happen openly under their noses? ... complicit/bribed staff? ... too few staff? ... lack of care? I do not know, but it is a fact.

To those saying (entirely reasonably) we should stop the drug dealers in our society, please bear in mind that if it is apparently impossible to do that in the closed community of prison, how the hell us it going to be achieved on the outside?

My sister ( a social worker) visited her boyfriend in Chelmsford before the fire in 1978.
Prior to the fire the amount of cannabis being smuggled in was off the scale. Ergo, most prisoners were very happy.
Then a new governor took over and there was a big clampdown
on smuggling. The prisoners woke up😱
Not long after that there was the awful fire.

keepingquiet

Jess20

When the large old mental hospitals closed down and patients moved to care in the community the places where many mentally ill people could go to receive care and treatment disappeared as well. These old hospitals provided somewhere to live and be supported, asylum from
a difficult world. The aim was to give patients a better life but they now fill prisons and have nowhere to go to be helped. The same was true for dementia care which now falls to families to provide or finance care. Unintended consequences.

Many prisoners are illiterate, often dyslexic and haven't been supported at school. We need to look at supporting people to live in society and be less quick to write them off and send them to jail.

When Thatcher closed these places down and brought in 'care in the community' it was seen as radical and progressive.

The old asylums which had large grounds were sold off and turned into private housing developments or student accommodation.

One large asylum near me had about twenty wards, provided employment in the community, as well as social clubs and sporting activities.

It was replaced with one ward in the local general hospital and cuts in NHS training, staff and provision for mental health services.

A couple of generations later and this policy is beginning to unravel because often the burden of caring for the mentally ill actually falls on the police. It is a shabby and inadequate system which impacts of police, courts and now we are seeing. prisons. They have become the new asylums.

Unless we have a functioning and effective programme of intervention in young families, schools, universities and in the workplace we will just carry on getting more and more people involved in petty crime being turned into full-time criminals.

I really hope this government can begin to sort it out, but it will only be a beginning. It will take years to fix.

Good public services are effective and need funding. Care in the community then austerity have been hugely costly financially as well as socially.

Agree, but the UK would have to first negotiate with the country of origin to agree to the return. If they didn't agree?

If it results in "Swaps" then I'm not sure we'd free up that many places.

Jannipans

For starters, I would deport any prisoners who are not British back to their country of origin.

Totally agree!