Labour gambling with public safety

No one on this interesting discussion is suggesting offenders shouldn’t be punished. The majority want our criminal justice system to be more effective, recognising the ‘lock’em up’ approach is not stopping crime. It’s not cost effective and does nothing to prevent re-offending

Iam64

I’ve never understood the heavy sentences for a first ‘white collar’ crime. I recall almost 50 years ago an accountant being sentenced to 3 years hmp. The probation report recommended 2 years supervision and outlined in detail the circumstances leading up a the offence. The PO saw it as a one off offence.

We knew someone who received quite a hefty sentence for fraud and were astonished when we heard. They had moved to a larger house nearby but nothing ostentatious. Of course, everyone was saying his wife must have known (I am sure she didn't) and she moved away through the shame of it all.

Nicenanny3

Cossy

Far too many of our prisoners are addicts, veterans, homeless, mentally unwell and care leavers! Treat the source and rehabilitate and watch for the results.

How?

By having prisons that concentrate on education and rehabilitation of those whose personal problems brought them to crime and into prison. Give far more support on release. make sure everyone released as a place to go to to live, no one is turned out with nowhere to go. Encourage foar more schemes like the Timpson scheme so that released prisoners have jobs when they ocne out.

Much repeat crimes comes from men released, with little or no money, no roof over their head and no job, they just drift back into theft, drug addiction and mental illness.

I’ve never understood the heavy sentences for a first ‘white collar’ crime. I recall almost 50 years ago an accountant being sentenced to 3 years hmp. The probation report recommended 2 years supervision and outlined in detail the circumstances leading up a the offence. The PO saw it as a one off offence.

It seems that crimes against the 'State' or property are regarded far more seriously than violent crimes against the individual.

Nicenanny3

Cossy

Far too many of our prisoners are addicts, veterans, homeless, mentally unwell and care leavers! Treat the source and rehabilitate and watch for the results.

How?

Your question has been answer many times on various threads. Links to positive results from other norther European countries have been posted.
If you’re genuinely interested Google Holland - their alternative to custody approach very successful

vegansrock

The years of austerity - reducing number of experience prison officers, probation officers, training schemes and privatisation of prisons have led to this crisis. Large numbers of people are incarcerated who are no threat to the public - Just Stop Oil protesters , women in for benefit fraud for example. I know of one man who got 3 years for a first time white collar offence banged up for 23 hours a day - his time could have been used far more productively - helping other offenders with literacy, other work in the community for example. Training schemes, education, psychiatric help and addiction therapy should be available in order to prevent further offending.

👏👏👏👏👏

Iam64

MOnica we agree, prison is ineffective in preventing re-offending. My impression is that new prisons are still needed because many of our prisons were built by the Victorians and not fit for purpose.
I often wonder if posters who don’t accept the need for good alternatives have ever been inside `strangeways aka Manchester prison, or Liverpool Walton, Wandsworth etc

Well I’ve been inside Chelmsford prison, (on a visit), and in a cell with a low risk prisoner on a low risk wing, this was bad enough. I cannot imagine what the much older prisons are like!

I also visited Bulwood Hall, in Essex, many many years for a job interview, which I was offered but turned down as my parents had a fit, sometime I regretted! This, at the time, was the only high security prison for young women aged between 16-25, though there was a violent prisoner in there aged 13. I spent the day there and it was really interesting, and just a bit scary.

Iam64

Dickens post about her friend’s young daughter reminds me our family know a first time offender, aged 40, facing a prison sentence. The case was brought by Trading Standards against several people running similar businesses. None knew they were doing anything illegal - hard to believe but true. They’ve been advised to plead guilty to avoid longer prison sentences

Two points - it feel a bit reminiscent of the post office scandal. More importantly none of the defendants have previous convictions. All lost their businesses with huge impact on family life and mental health. Prison won’t protect society, they pose no threat. Surely community sentences more appropriate and cheaper for the public purse

Surely community sentences more appropriate and cheaper for the public purse

Well, quite.

I'm sure ex-offenders sometimes need supporting financially when they leave prison.

My friend's daughter lost her job and, ultimately, her rental accommodation. So she certainly needed benefits when she came out. Fortunately, she had a supportive family and sooner than expected found a reasonable job and further accommodation.

But what an upheaval, and at what cost to the public purse - just to make an example of her.

And her young son was old enough to wonder what had happened to mummy - and why she couldn't come home.

The whole thing was ridiculous, a suspended sentence, a fine and community-service would have been sufficient.

In the end they had to let her out early - there was no suitable accommodation for a 'light' offender at the time, and they'd banged her up in a cell with a much older woman, a drug-addict. Though the woman was in fact very kind to her.

Yet sometimes there is no "example" made of young males who assault and attack other males - and women. They attract a suspended sentence.

Cossy

Far too many of our prisoners are addicts, veterans, homeless, mentally unwell and care leavers! Treat the source and rehabilitate and watch for the results.

How?

When people are in victorian prisons sometimes 3 to a cell designed for one, when prisoners on remand not yet up for trial are mixed in with the general population, when there are no educational or similar programmes, when the legal minimum of only one hour outside the cell a day is often the only option, how can we expect to turn lives around?

Far too many of our prisoners are addicts, veterans, homeless, mentally unwell and care leavers! Treat the source and rehabilitate and watch for the results.

Dickens post about her friend’s young daughter reminds me our family know a first time offender, aged 40, facing a prison sentence. The case was brought by Trading Standards against several people running similar businesses. None knew they were doing anything illegal - hard to believe but true. They’ve been advised to plead guilty to avoid longer prison sentences

Two points - it feel a bit reminiscent of the post office scandal. More importantly none of the defendants have previous convictions. All lost their businesses with huge impact on family life and mental health. Prison won’t protect society, they pose no threat. Surely community sentences more appropriate and cheaper for the public purse

Dickens

A friend's young daughter was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment for a minor crime.

She was a first offender with a previous clean-slate.

She was a danger to no-one, and the judge openly said that he was sentencing her as an "example".

She lost her job, her family had to take turns caring for her very young child, and she had to rely on welfare after release until she found another job.

And yet offenders who have committed violent crimes are sometimes given suspended sentences. Her crime did not involve violence.

The sentencing guidelines are ridiculous.

I agree.

foxie48

Norway has the lowest level of recidivism in the world, below is an interesting research article on the approach which is basically much more about making prison as much like life outside prison as possible which a focus on rehabilitation. This wouldn't go down well with those who see prison as purely a punishment but it seems to work effectively and would be cheaper in the long run than the endless cycle of reoffending that the UK has.

digitalcommons.coastal.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=bridges

Surely the “punishment” is loss of liberty?

Even criminals are humans.

Most, definitely not all, criminals are able to be rehabilitated and then work to make repartition for their crimes.

Having people out on licence doesn't work. Its a free for all for shop lifter's as it is. Prisoners should be working not sitting around, to just incarcerate without rehabilitation is ridiculous.

A friend's young daughter was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment for a minor crime.

She was a first offender with a previous clean-slate.

She was a danger to no-one, and the judge openly said that he was sentencing her as an "example".

She lost her job, her family had to take turns caring for her very young child, and she had to rely on welfare after release until she found another job.

And yet offenders who have committed violent crimes are sometimes given suspended sentences. Her crime did not involve violence.

The sentencing guidelines are ridiculous.

New prisons for old definitely, much of the recidivism and violence in our prisons can be laid at the door of the very old and totally unsuitable and degrading buildings prisoners are kept in.

Young prisoners, I mean those between 18-30, need to be kept separately from older prisoners, with the emphasis being on education, drugs programmes and organised work placements and accommodation when they leave.

MOnica we agree, prison is ineffective in preventing re-offending. My impression is that new prisons are still needed because many of our prisons were built by the Victorians and not fit for purpose.
I often wonder if posters who don’t accept the need for good alternatives have ever been inside `strangeways aka Manchester prison, or Liverpool Walton, Wandsworth etc

if prison is so effective why do we need to build more prisons.

Interestingly there are some posters that see prison as a deterrent. It hasn't been and it won't be. Most crimes are committed because the individual does not believe that they will be caught.

The punishment for cattle rustling and poaching in the 19thC was hanging or deportation. This did not stop people doing either of those crimes.

Proper rehabilitation would be better. Even murderers could be rehabilitated - but not necessarily let out of prison.

I’m curious why the continued focus on imprisonment. Several posts have referred to evidence from other Northern European countries of better outcomes with noncustodial sentences
I’m not defending bad practice in agencies. Im not suggesting violent or sex offenders avoid prison.

pably15

exactly Nice nanny....build more prisons. too many times weve been made aware of prisoners out on bail or released early, committing more crimes....

Yes pably15 precisely.

McSweeney was known to police as a serial offender.

Previously, he had 28 convictions for 69 offences including burglary and assault and had been released from prison on licence just nine days before the murder.

In that time, his licence had been revoked after he failed to attend any meetings with probation workers.

After Ms Aleena's murder, a damning report found a catalogue of errors in the Probation Service's handling of McSweeney, which meant he was not treated as a high-risk offender and was "free" to commit this "most heinous crime".(Sky news website)

Zara Aleena's killer mistakes by the Probation Service could have been prevented.

dalrymple to take your analogy further the thing that kept people out of these hospitals during Covid was initially lock down and then the vaccine.

Prevention is always better than cure, or no cure, in this respect.