Social Care Brushed Aside Again

Of course the main issue for the current situation was cutting the funding from central government and expecting local authorities to pick up the financial shortfall

social care isn't just for old people
social care isn't free. Contribution to care is almost £400 a month, even if you are unemployed and on benefits

the things I think are problematic
agency staff getting paid more than core staff. If core staff were paid more, there would be better retention of staff and better consistent care
poor management, poor management of staff - again this contributes to poor staff retention
care for profit rather than for care itself, patient acquisition
inadequate accessible housing in the community

then add in that caring and support work is seen as a unskilled job (demeaning it all to bottom wiping springs to mind) when quite the opposite is true

Witzend

Re what they do elsewhere, a French friend of a dd, working in the U.K., is apparently legally required to pay €250 a month towards her dad’s care in France.

She bitterly resents it, because she says he was a useless father, feckless and workshy, which is largely why he has no assets to speak of. I gather that he’s not even all that old, only in his 60s.

That's correct. I believe it's called the "alimentation obligatoire". Children are responsible for their parents' upkeep, no matter where in the world the children live.

Re what they do elsewhere, a French friend of a dd, working in the U.K., is apparently legally required to pay €250 a month towards her dad’s care in France.

She bitterly resents it, because she says he was a useless father, feckless and workshy, which is largely why he has no assets to speak of. I gather that he’s not even all that old, only in his 60s.

Both my grandfathers died in their early 60's and both grandmothers lived into their 80's cared for at home by one of their daughters. My mother died at 61 following an operation to replace a heart valve and Dad died at 69 with coronary heart disease tbh both would probably have lived for many years if they had been born later and as my sister lived abroad I would have taken on the responsibility of looking after them. There was a time when putting your parent in a home for others to care for was a rarity, but women tended to be SAHMs and families were bigger. MIL lived with us for the last few years of her life until she died at 101. This idea that we have paid for social care in our old age is ridiculous, we haven't and if we need it and have some money saved then we should spend it on our care so that poorer people can have theirs paid for by the state. Some will say but that isn't fair but life isn't fair. Some get born into wealthy families, some of us don't, some have illnesses or disabilities, some of us don't, some have successful lives with plenty of money, some of us don't. Some die young whilst others linger on with horrible illnesses, some of don't. I could go on but you get the drift! IMO and some of you will no doubt disagree, the measure of how civilised we are is how much we care for our more vulnerable citizens, regardless of why they are vulnerable. The idea of the "deserving poor" and the "undeserving poor" is just an excuse for rationing our empathy. Off to walk the dog.

Apologies Gransnetters, I got mixed with my dollars and pounds in my other post, I meant to say the cost of a GP consultation in NZ is between £12.50 and £50. I quoted dollars when I meant pounds in one place. The GP Practice is free to set it’s own charges as I understand it, and so those practices in more affluent areas tend to charge more, whilst in poorer areas they charge less. All citizens pay for their prescription medication, and GPs hands are tied by the government about which medications they can prescribe, although they can prescribe other medications, usually better, if the patient can afford to pay privately. Of course that means that if a patient is on a medication long term, it can be very expensive, as some of the drugs are expensive. The only exceptions are children, there are no exceptions for the elderly or the poor. They also have long waiting lists for hospital treatment, and lists are closed at times so that it becomes impossible for a GP to even put a patient on a waiting list. For this reason we recently paid for our six year old grandson to have his tonsils and adenoids out, as the waiting list was two years, and his hearing was 50% down. Knowing the importance of hearing in a child’s learning and development we offered to pay in order to resolve this situation.

Our NHS desperately needs funding and organisation, but I prefer it to the situation in NZ.

maddyone

I can also imagine the howls of outrage if such measures were to be introduced here Witzend.
My daughter is a GP in New Zealand. Everyone, including retired people, have to pay a charge for a GP visit there. Depending on which GP Practice it is, the charge is between twenty five dollars and one hundred dollars, that’s between £12.50 and £100 for a GP visit. Most are around fifty dollars, that’s £25. Only children are exempt from charges.

I’ve long thought there should be a small charge for a GP consultation here, with only children being the exceptions.

I think they have free social care in Scotland.

My daughter is a GP in New Zealand. Everyone, including retired people, have to pay a charge for a GP visit there.

Also in Norway.

When I lived there back in the late 90s, it was around £10-£11 equivalent per visit, maybe fractionally more, I can't quite remember.

However, there was a ceiling - something like £125 or thereabout which, when reached, ended the payments.

Also included were certain prescriptions and most appointments with consultants, the cost varied considerably between as little as £8 to a much higher charge of around £26. There was obviously a 'charging formula' but I never quite understood how it worked.

Children under (I think) 16 were excluded, as were retirees who paid the charge but were reimbursed later.

All hospital admissions requiring treatment were free.

Although wages vary in Norway, generally speaking they are considerably higher than in the UK, and I imagine these charges are, mostly, affordable, even for the lower-paid.

I know some have suggested we should do the same here.
How well it would work, I don't know. For those on low-paid contract work / zero hours, it would be very difficult to budget for it. There would have to be exclusions, and thus a whole layer of admin created for the purpose.

From what I’ve read, the nursing care and social care needs are met free for over 65s in Scotland, but there are items in non-personal care, and for residential care, that are charged for. It sounds very similar to the Scandinavian models.

I’d be in favour of that, but it would inevitably raise taxes, which not everybody would be happy with.

foxie48

I wouldn't howl with outrage. When the NHS was set up it was thought that there would be a gradual reduction in the care that people needed because we would become a healthier nation. We didn't and our demands on the NHS increase all the time. I'd be happy to pay towards my care as long as no one is denied care on the basis of their ability to pay, so means testing is perfectly OK with me. I'd also pay for prescriptions, currently I get three a month, basically which is over £250 a year if I paid each month, a yearly scrip is £114.50. I'm definitely not suggesting a two tier system just one that asks those of us who can afford to pay more, to do so.

There has been a reduction in the conditions which the NHS was treating in the 1940s. There has been a massive reduction in infectious diseases and childhood illnesses. If people had a heart condition or cancer, they died because there weren't effective treatments. I'm not even sure that the NHS envisaged paying for social care.

Maybe those who don't want to pay any more should get hold of a list of treatments prescribed in the 1940s or 1950s and restrict the NHS to only treating those conditions. I know I wouldn't still be alive and I wonder how many others wouldn't be either.

With regard to social care, again I'm happy to pay and if I die leaving a bit of cash for my children then that's money they haven't had to work for!

I wouldn't howl with outrage. When the NHS was set up it was thought that there would be a gradual reduction in the care that people needed because we would become a healthier nation. We didn't and our demands on the NHS increase all the time. I'd be happy to pay towards my care as long as no one is denied care on the basis of their ability to pay, so means testing is perfectly OK with me. I'd also pay for prescriptions, currently I get three a month, basically which is over £250 a year if I paid each month, a yearly scrip is £114.50. I'm definitely not suggesting a two tier system just one that asks those of us who can afford to pay more, to do so.

I can also imagine the howls of outrage if such measures were to be introduced here Witzend.
My daughter is a GP in New Zealand. Everyone, including retired people, have to pay a charge for a GP visit there. Depending on which GP Practice it is, the charge is between twenty five dollars and one hundred dollars, that’s between £12.50 and £100 for a GP visit. Most are around fifty dollars, that’s £25. Only children are exempt from charges.

I’ve long thought there should be a small charge for a GP consultation here, with only children being the exceptions.

I think they have free social care in Scotland.

ronib

A friend who lives in Germany wanted to know when a social care insurance scheme would be launched in the Uk. Apparently this scheme works very well in Germany and presumably care workers are paid a living wage and old people are well cared for without bankruptcy looming. Interesting observation… dream on.

Yes I've quoted this before. Family pay an extra tax for social care, as well as paying into health insurance, which are all kept separate from general taxation. By the way the German minimum wage is €12.41 full time gives you €2,085 per month, but rents are as high if not higher than here, and family assure me food costs are also higher, as is fuel. They have the same problems with health care recriutment as do we, in fact its worldwide.

Casdon

One family’s experience is not the measure of the effectiveness of a system, it’s just one family’s experience ronib. The best care system for older people in the world according to expert analysis is in Norway. Generally, the Scandinavian countries are the most inclusive and have the most satisfied populations.

It’s worth noting, though, that in Sweden (according to my Swedish friend) virtually everyone pays relatively small charges for

a) visits to GP and A&E
b) prescriptions - even her over 90 dad did
c) and something towards the ‘board’ element of hospital stays.

But I can imagine the howls of outrage if any such measures were ever suggested here.

ronib, you’ve lost me? Are you suggesting that the British public would rather pay care insurance as they do in Germany than pay if they need care and have funds? The option is open already for people to take out private insurance here if they wish to.

Casdon let’s discuss the figures. When assessed as needing 4 care visits a day to effect transfer, 7 days a week using 2 carers the State will end up paying. Depending on how many years a person survives, the care bill might not be covered by value in the house so total costs won’t be recouped on death by the State/taxpayer. People are living to 100.

Interesting to note that the very expensive private healthcare company locally was always able to provide a care worker with very little notice. Social services refuse to pay at this level as savings are all gone so my friend is now fully reliant on the State.

Your friend would not be eligible for social care in Germany unless she had made the mandatory insurance contribution throughout her working life, which is currently 3.4% - 4% of annual salary, either provided by statutory health insurance or private health insurance. There is no option not to pay, so effectively that is a large additional tax on your income. I’m surprised that you would argue in favour of an additional mandatory tax. Added to which, the service has the same issues as it does in the UK, as discussed above.

Casdon people can afford to pay up to a point and they do. My friend now has complex needs and her savings are low having paid for quite some time.
Follow the German model as we’re too poor to go the Scandinavian route. Simple.

growstuff I would ask how private care agencies are allowed to charge end users such exorbitant rates. Then I would say that it’s time to implement some kind of insurance plan/scheme to cover costs for older people. Germany has such a system.

Scandinavian countries have free social care ronib, I’m not aware of any other countries that do? I can imagine the outcry from Tory voters if the government said that the UK was moving to a Scandinavian model. You have said you are a small state believer on numerous occasions, I don’t understand why you would support free social care for people who can afford to pay?

ronib

Casdon don’t you mean that no British government will help my friend? Other countries would.

So who do you think is going to pay your friend £140k a year? the government doesn't have any money - it reallocates money from people paying taxes (ie all of us).

Casdon don’t you mean that no British government will help my friend? Other countries would.

The point I’m making ronib is that nothing has changed for your friend, she had this dilemma two weeks ago, before the government changed, and she has it now. No government was going to give her what she wants - in two weeks, or in two months, or in two years and why should it? She is a home owner, she will have to pay until her money runs out, the same as everybody else does.
It is irrelevant what you think about the government’s green agenda in the context of your friend’s social care needs now.

Casdon I don’t know what my friend wants to do and I don’t think she knows either. She’s facing a truly colossal care bill due to physical deterioration and risk of falling. Using a private agency would cost in the region of £140k per year and that is without the cost of running a home and food.
The new government, having inherited the worst economy since 1962, has a very particular set of priorities which are going to cost us very heavily.

Oreo

I’ve been a care worker ( within a care home) for quite a while now and am paid more than the minimum wage.Care homes pay varies. We have a few dementia patients or customers as we are supposed to call them, very sad cases and difficult to treat at times.Others are like anyone else, with all the many characteristics you would expect and complex needs.You come to be very attached to some of them.
Council run care homes will pay less than private care homes usually.
Social care really needs to be addressed it’s been kicked into the long grass by successive governments.

I agree, social care has also been "kicked into the long grass" by people who want (understandably) the best of care for their elderly relatives but don't want to pay increased council tax in order that people like yourself can earn a decent salary.