Rachel Reeves has announced that winter fuel payments will only be paid to those on Pension Credit.nsion Credit

I've googled As of May this year the UK boasted a total of 165 billionaires. It doesn't tell me how many are pensioners over the age of 67 but I'd suspect not a great percentage, so not too much WFA being wasted on the underserving filthy rich.

Labour…….has vowed to be the party for pensioners…

They lied.

How many billionaire pensioners are there in the UK? Enough that fiscal policy should be determined by their number?

I agree with you about the "bells and whistles" MOnica (and I am somebody not much above the Pension Credit threshold, who will certainly notice the loss of WFA.

Currently, I pay income tax on my pensions but I also receive Housing Benefit and free dental care, glasses and prescriptions.

So I'm being assessed three times - once for income tax, once for Housing Benefit and again for free medical treatment. One hand is taking while another is giving back. It would be much simpler (and probably administratively cheaper) to raise the level of state pension and just tax me on my total income. It would be up to me how I spend my money.

Well the Tories gave us the Triple Lock and a big rise this year and the extra money for heating put into our accounts as well as the Winter Fuel Allowance and Rachel Thieves (good name that) and LIEbour (another apt name) took it away.

The triple lock on the state pension was introduced by the Coalition government.

Steve Webb was the brains behind the triple lock. He was a LibDem MP who served as Pensions Minister under the coalition government from 2010 to 2015.

If you were to look back at Hansard and the the history and debates regarding index-linking state pension and tax personal allowances you would see that it has been LibDems who have pushed for improvement.

It was Ed Davey who pushed to have the Labour Rooker-Wise amendment, which had been in force since 1977, further improved by triple-locking tax personal tax allowances so that they be raised by the higher of inflation or earnings instead of just inflation. There was a division and he lost to a Labour majority concerned at the cost of the proposed change but he tried.

Timeline

In 1977, Labour introduced index-linking the tax personal allowance so that it rose each year by the rate of inflation. The Labour MPs behind this were Jeff Rooker and Audrey Wise. The annual rise became known as the Rooker-Wise amendment.

In 1999, it was LibDem MP, Ed Davey who tried to improve RookerWise by proposing “triple-locking” the annual rise to the tax personal allowance.

In 2010, it was LibDem MP, Steve Webb whose idea it was to triple-lock state pension rises. The idea behind the triple lock was to bring up the value of the state pension. It had been on a downward spiral since 1980 after Tory Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher broke its link with earnings.

In 2021, it was Tory Chancellor Rishi Sunak who froze tax allowances, bringing more people on low incomes including pensioners into the tax net by fiscal drag aka tax by stealth. He used a Finance Bill to override legislation that has been in force for 44 years.

At Autumn Statement 2022, it was Tory Chancellor Jeremy Hunt who extended the freeze on tax personal allowances by a further two years which will continue to bring people on low incomes including pensioners into the tax net.

When people are giving giving silly nicknames to MPs and political parties, take a care to do some research and acknowledge that the Tories had been responsible for eroding the value of the state pension since Thatcher and for tax rises.

Generally, I don’t disagree with what Reeves has done - only the timing of what she has done. She has been left in a very difficult position by the previous government as the OBR has confirmed in its letter to the Treasury Select Committee dated 27 July 2024. It makes no sense to give a non-contributory benefit to everyone of pension age including billionaires but she should have given more notice so that people could budget for the change and considered how the change would affect those just below the rate at which Pension Credit can be claimed. My thoughts are along the lines of WWM2’s. There may be other measures in the Autumn Statement that will counteract this.

Some on this forum would say that all spending brings a return to revenue, this has not been happening for many years, so any reference to economic theory is misplaced

That is because the money government has spent into the economy has mostly benefitted big businesses and the wealthy who have a) tax system which favours them b) use tax avoidance (legal) schemes which minimise the tax they pay c)don't spend much into the UK domestic economy, which is where the greatest amount of tax revenue will come from c) are global businesses like Amazon which don't pay UK tax on their UK generated profits (i.e money from domestic consumers which originated from state spending) and d) foreign businesses which take their profits and dividends out of the UK.

We need a complete overhaul of our tax system to keep more money out of the hands of the already wealthy and state spending targeted more to those who will keep it in the UK economy.

And don't forget that savers with the government and individual and institutional investors in government bonds are, in effect, returning money to the government.

We are in the big group of pensoners with occupational pensions who will be able to pay for their fuel bills without worrying about losing the einter fuel allowance.

I have every sympathy for those just above PC level, this withdrawal should have been phased in, but, as with the tv license, their are plenty of us who can cope with it with minimum dsruption. So do not waste any time worrying over those millions of pensioners for whom this will not be a severe financial loss.

Personally I would get rid of all the bells and whistles pensioners get, free travel, prescriptions (you can get an annual season ticket, if you take lots of medications) Christmas bonus etc and simply increase the Pension Credit by a significant amount. The cost of not having all those people and computers issuing all these litle bits here and there, will be more than a recompense.

If bus companies choose they can give cheap travel to older people because it is good business, like the railways do.

Urmstongran

Anyone else think that had Labour had gone into the election admitting they would pay the doctors 22% and the rest of the public sector over 5%, whilst removing the Winter Heating Allowance from millions of pensioners living just above poverty levels, would the election result would have been very different?

One month in Ms. Reeves. 59 to go…

We’re watching.

No. I think that most people realised that difficult decisions would have to be made. We were told that often enough. £22billion pounds unaccounted for plus all the money that went to cronies during Covid - only a fool would expect no pain after that.

There will be a budget in the Autumn. Let’s see what that brings before the cold weather hits.

I am not thrilled about this move, but I am very pleased about a lot of the other things the government has done in the short time it has been in power.

LizzieDrip

^I’m thinking that too plus our bus passes. Anything they can rob from us they will^

Primrose not long ago you were telling us about putting a ‘ring of steel’ around your finances, so that Labour couldn’t take any extra tax from you - tax that would contribute to the good of your country.

I seem to remember you considering splashing out on expensive holidays and new cars.

I wouldn’t have thought you’d be in need of a bus pass!

LizzieDrip funnily enough we were viewing new cars today. You will be pleased to know we used our bus passes to go on the Park and Ride Bus too! If we are entitled to bus passes then we are pleased to accept. Pretty much like I imagine you were pleased to accept free prescriptions, eye tests, winter fuel allowance etc.

I don’t think I mentioned “expensive holidays” but hopefully we will be taking more foreign holidays now so we don’t leave too much behind.

We worked very hard for what we have but realise that Labour and yourself don’t approve of that.

Farzanah

From the Guardian 16/4/24
Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the U.K. are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest numbers since comparable records began.
Labour which analysed figures from the DWP records , has vowed to be the party for pensioners………
Ho hum.

🤣🤣🤣

Farzanah

From the Guardian 16/4/24
Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the U.K. are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest numbers since comparable records began.
Labour which analysed figures from the DWP records , has vowed to be the party for pensioners………
Ho hum.

It’s coincidental that 850,000 pensioners who are entitled to receive pension credit haven’t claimed it, I guess.

From the Guardian 16/4/24
Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the U.K. are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest numbers since comparable records began.
Labour which analysed figures from the DWP records , has vowed to be the party for pensioners………
Ho hum.

Anyone else think that had Labour had gone into the election admitting they would pay the doctors 22% and the rest of the public sector over 5%, whilst removing the Winter Heating Allowance from millions of pensioners living just above poverty levels, would the election result would have been very different?

One month in Ms. Reeves. 59 to go…

We’re watching.

Merion

I still maintain that withdrawing WFA at such short notice was indiscriminately cruel. For two winters we have had enhanced payments of £500 or £600 depending on age because of the cost of living crisis. If someone heats their home for six months then that was a very welcome £83 or £100 a month toward those costs. I think WFA was reverting to £200 or £300 this year but it would still have been £33 or £50 a month that people were budgeting on. Reeves would be the frst to day we need to budget responsibly. To take away WFA just a month before the cold weather sets in in some parts of the country seems heartless. How is someone on a limited budget meant to meet that shortfall? Yes, the Chancellor has some hard decisions to make but why this particular benefit? Because it was a quick and easy target? Warmth is at the very base of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs: food, water, shelter, warmth and rest. The 1.5 billion saving is a drop in the ocean. As, I said upthread, she should have left WFA alone until other measures were put in place to protect those who are entitled to but not yet receiving pension credit and the results of the Ofgem review of energy standing charges that are costing households £300 a year irrespective of how much energy they use.

👏👏👏

Yes, as I have said previously, these add-ons which are not consolidated as part of a state pension or benefit can be removed instantly.

I forgot to say, as well as watching the heating costs, using hot water bottles, blankets and lentils, there isn't even the joy of watching TV in the dark days of winter.

… at the risk of starting another argument here, I’d get rid of Premium Bonds
I do like the frisson of excitement and anticipation every month!
Even those with very few bonds have been known to win £1million

I don’t doubt many better off pensioners can afford to pay their heating bills (due to increase this winter) but many pensioners can’t, but don’t qualify for PC, and will have to go short of essentials to manage it.

There are choices for Reeves but she’s picked the low hanging fruit, not daring to upset some who pay lower rates of tax than others in society. I do hope she addresses this in the budget, but I’m not holding my breath.

MissAdventure

Increases to the new State Pension
You can now get up to £221.20 per week depending on the National Insurance contributions you made during your working years.

Increases to the old State Pension
The full State Pension under the old rules is now £169.50 per week for people with at least 30 years of NI contributions.

Increases to Pension Credit
Guarantee Credit can now top up your income to at least £218.15 per week for single people and £332.95 for couples.

Savings Credit is now up to £17.01 extra per week for single people or £19.04 extra per week for couples.

The full State Pension under the old rules is now £169.50 per week for people with at least 30 years of NI contributions.

No, older people need 39 full years of contributions to get a full old State Pension

So 30/39th of £169.50.

If you're a woman born before 6 April 1950 or a man born before 6 April 1945, you may need more years of NI contributions. If this applies to you, it's a good idea to seek specialist advice.

The whole system of pensions is constantly changing and often unfair.

GrannyGravy13

Lovetopaint037

They appear to have sorted the doctor’s strike. That is a relief.also promising increased nhs pay. Anger should be focussed on Hunt and the last useless lying government including Truss. They knew about the black hole and they knew it would force Labour to make some hard decisions.

Another poster has pointed out that the black hole is actually only 2% of government spending/borrowing.

More of a pin prick in reality

Catastrophising!!

If British pensioners who get £12k per year are considered too well off to receive the winter fuel allowance , shouldn't MP's on £96k per year be considered too rich to receive housing , heating , travel and meal subsidies ?
#NEVERLABOUR 🤬
(Copied from Facebook)

HattieTopper

People who are getting the new state pension won't feel the stopping of the WFA as much as we older people on the old state pension as people on the new state pension get much more a month than we do. The difference between the two is £52 per week that means people on the new state pension get £200 approx more every four weeks. See below.......

The weekly rate of the full new State Pension is £221.20 per week. The weekly rate of the full basic State Pension is £169.50 per week.

So before peope on the new state pension start saying they can manage, with the WFA they should realise that they can manage because they get a lot more per month than we on the old state pension receive.

Don't forget, HattieTopper that a full new State Pension of £221.20 per week is payable after paying just 35 years of contributions.

Under the old scheme, 35 years of contributions is not enough for a full pension so only 35/39 of the old State Pension is paid ie £152 per week.
Add in a small works pension (because many older women may have taken a few years out to bring up a family), taking them a few £s above the limit to claim more, and the result will be a lot of older women pensioners cold and miserable next winter.

Ah well, there's always hot water bottles, blankets and lentil soup.

Castdon. Sorry to the pedants.

Ah, fair point Casden.
Thank you.

MissAdventure

Nicenanny3

Well the Tories gave us the Triple Lock and a big rise this year and the extra money for heating put into our accounts as well as the Winter Fuel Allowance and Rachel Thieves (good name that) and LIEbour (another apt name) took it away.

Thank you.
Fair point.

Only sort of true though. The triple lock was a LibDem pledge for the 2010 election, and was one of the things introduced in the coalition government, so actually it’s them we have to thank.

You may be content Whitewavemark2 but most pensioners aren’t and neither am I, a non pensioner.

Would be funny if it wasn't becoming true 🤔

Whitewavemark2

I’ve just nipped in before I nip out again, so I haven’t read any of this thread really. But I do agree with iam64

We have a labour government probably in power for the next 5 years, we have not yet had a budget or spending review so I think it is very difficult to comment yet on Reeves economic plans.

What we have had this week is Reeves outlining what labour have inherited from the Tories, and how this will be managed in the immediate future.

I am content to wait and see what the spending review and budget brings.

I think that we can be fairly certain that there will be tax rises.

I shall now dash ,shower, get changed and nip out again😊

Jolly good 😄