These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Ilovecheese

Quokka

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

So they would still be violent, but it would be more disciplined and skilled violence?

Violent? What ARE you talking about?

Those who are disruptive in schools are mostly the less academic ones, who have nothing to feel any achievement about, and don't see any point in being co-operative. They ned skills that they can't learn in a classroom, and people to learn them from who are not associated in their minds with their failure in the three Rs.

I very much agree with this, and and saw it happening in the secondary school I worked in.

Non-academic pupils felt as if they were failing straight away, and this feeling of failure increased as they progressed up the school. Streaming only helps the more academic children, which I wouldn't dismiss, but makes the sense of failure even more apparent to the others. How could it not, knowing they were in the 'bottom set'?

I remember being in a classroom in a 'bottom set' year 10 English lesson (I was there to help a severely autistic boy). They were all boys, high on testosterone, and many lessons descended into uproar and running around, jumping from desk to desk. They were doing Romeo and Juliet, and watched part of the 1996 film. They were absolutely transfixed by it and really enjoyed watching it. But instead of being able to enjoy the whole film, they only saw two bits, then had to write an essay on it, which they hated and weren't able to do!

I felt that watching the whole film and then maybe talking about it would have had FAR more benefit to them; having to grind out essays on it was pushing them through a round hole that didn't fit them, so all they could succeed in was creating mayhem.

It isn’t fair on anyone

Mollygo, you’re correct, some parents seek a diagnosis for various reasons when their difficulties could be helped by a good Parenting Skills course

We shouldn’t forget though, that some very bright children who cope well in the structured school environment are masking their ASD features. They get home, emotionally exhausted by masking their anxiety at school, often by over achieving, exemplary behaviour. A parent ask them to pick their coat or bag up and the child explodes. Parents are exhausted by their attempts to manage extreme outbursts and dole out sanctions. No screen time tonight they insist, thus depriving their child of down time.
Parents can feel so criticised and judged because the challenging behaviour only happens when they’re with their much loved child

Attacking parents and siblings is often seen in these children. Because they’re good children at school, don’t tick the ASD checklist for school assessments (poor eye contact, isolated from peer group, challenging behaviour) they aren’t suitable for CAHMS referral via GP, or referral to school psychological services.
Parents with finances / or grandparents who can give £2000 often get a private assessment. That can really help with managing the behaviour better, and the report if from a recognised psychological services can help school and child. It can’t be right though, that this is the only way to access expert help

I do recognise that scenario, Mollygo.

Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support.
This has been improving over the last few years. I have seen much earlier diagnoses, with more children coming into school with an EHCP already in place and more children being diagnosed even before entering KS2, but it’s still not sufficient.
The situation is worsened since more and more parents are diagnosing their children and demanding a label that matches what they feel their child needs.
It’s not always easy e.g. I recently met with a parent recently moved from Ireland who wanted support for her son who she thought had ASC.
“The school won’t do anything!” she said.
“They say he’s perfectly well behaved in school, that he’s doing well both academically and socially. But he’s a nightmare at home and he even attacks his little brother.”
I pointed her to some of the local parent help groups including the one my DGS went to. I asked if she’d like DD to introduce her, but whether she’ll go or not, who knows.

JaneJudge

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

What a good comment👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
We mustn’t go back to ‘Austerity’ and as far as I can see we should be raising taxes, I don’t earn a lot but am happy to pay a little more in income tax.It was a mistake for RR to rule out any tax rises before the election.

And so it leads to fights for limited resources, blaming other groups. I don't think the current government wants this, but it seems to me that the media thrives on it. Interviews on many news stations deliberately pit groups against each other instead of solution-seeking.

JaneJudge

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

Austerity has created a terrible divide....

Yes, hasn't it just. Far from the all being in it together trope, the divide widened.

Osborne decided it was time to ' balance the books'.

In reality, the money 'saved' didn't really go to to pay down the national debt - it went into, on the whole, giving tax cuts to the relatively better off.

Austerity was a cover for what the government wanted to do anyway - cut public spending and shrink the state.

... and here we are. They did it.

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

Elegran

The prisons are full of the illiterate.

That’s true and something I do have experience of working with.

I agree Iam64. There are lots of people with autism and LDs in prison, they even have specialised provision

I taught disaffected 16 year olds in what seems like a previous life, and one of the biggest challenges was getting them to think beyond 'them' and 'us'. It starts very young, so often by the time they are ready to leave school they have missed a lot of education because they see it as being for 'them' - swots, snobs, nerds etc - people who deserve to be bullied and ridiculed for trying to succeed. Kudos goes to those who disrupt classes, 'have a laugh' and get into trouble, and peer approval is so important, particularly in a group that sets itself against having the approval of the school and other authority.

Streaming can make this worse, but sometimes it makes sense to allow those who want to work the chance to do so without disruptive people in the same room.

Obviously a lot of this starts at home, where parents might not want their children to 'get above themselves', which might happen if they get a decent job and the opportunity to move away.

I don't know if military training is the answer (would that provide a trained force for malign influences to draw on?) but I agree that teaching trades would be useful if it isn't concentrated on 'lower' streams, which it so often is.

We closed big institutions for people with learning difficulties for good reason. The same with the large residential schools which were often used to prop up children in chaotic, neglectful families.
What we didn’t do, was use the money ‘saved’ to improve community services for these groups and we are reaping what was sowed.
This government has inherited an unholy mess. Every aspect of our public services designated. It’s unforgivable and the social costs are immeasurable, as are the financial costs needed to begin the slow process of building good public services that improve society.
None so blind as those who refuse to look at the evidence in other scandi/Northern European countries where a less punitive, more rehabilitative approach to offenders,especially young offenders is taken

The other obvious need is to have good services and societal expectations that reduce the possibility of offending and substance misuse

Doodledog

That's what I was getting at.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive - I hope so, but time will tell.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive

We can hope.

However, those divisions will continue to be stoked by various media - it's in their interests to do so.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

So they would still be violent, but it would be more disciplined and skilled violence?

Ilovecheese - if they had a skill under their belts, they would be less likely to be disaffected and rebellious. Those who are disruptive in schools are mostly the less academic ones, who have nothing to feel any achievement about, and don't see any point in being co-operative. They ned skills that they can't learn in a classroom, and people to learn them from who are not associated in their minds with their failure in the three Rs.

The prisons are full of the illiterate.

That's what I was getting at.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive - I hope so, but time will tell.

Doodledog

I think that's a great point, madeleine. Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

It would be great if we could have a Minister for Inclusion, with a remit to look at the ways groups are pitted against one another, and counter dis (or mis) information. It would be a difficult role, as nobody wants to see censorship, and 'fairness' is not achieved by having a spokesperson for every group on every broadcast as happens with party representatives near election time, but I think it would be useful.

Currently, if someone wants to cut services to one group they can point to how they need to spend on another and get away with it on that basis. That might seem fair, but the next step is often to cut services to the second group by comparing them with a different one. Intergenerational matters are a case in point. Pitting pensioners against parents is never going to make sense, as the groups are different, with differing lives and life experiences, but one group can always make a case against the other taking priority, so nobody wins.

Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

These economic, cultural and intergeneration 'wars' will continue until the electorate realise that they are a deliberate unwritten policy of government - divide and rule.

Why? Well imagine if the young and the old, the North and South, NHS incumbents, cyclists and motorists, all decided to band together and challenge the government of the day who are, basically, the interface between the very very wealthy elite who hold the capital and the power.

There are more of us than there are of them.

What would happen?

I think that's a great point, madeleine. Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

It would be great if we could have a Minister for Inclusion, with a remit to look at the ways groups are pitted against one another, and counter dis (or mis) information. It would be a difficult role, as nobody wants to see censorship, and 'fairness' is not achieved by having a spokesperson for every group on every broadcast as happens with party representatives near election time, but I think it would be useful.

Currently, if someone wants to cut services to one group they can point to how they need to spend on another and get away with it on that basis. That might seem fair, but the next step is often to cut services to the second group by comparing them with a different one. Intergenerational matters are a case in point. Pitting pensioners against parents is never going to make sense, as the groups are different, with differing lives and life experiences, but one group can always make a case against the other taking priority, so nobody wins.

There has been too much putting one group against another group. Sadly this seems to permeate political discussion atm, what drives us apart not brings us together.

Absolutely appalling behaviour and the sentences might make those thugs see that their behaviour is abhorent and will not be tolerated. Hopefully they might be made to do some of the clearing up of the mess they caused. I would be totally ashamed if anyone in my family behaved in such a way. There has been too much putting one group against another group and trying to blame specific groups instead of acknowledging that the lack of effort in trying to bring people together and the deliberate cutting down and diminishing of any financial support for schemes that would have helped to improve matters . But none of that excuses such dreadful behaviour .

I must admit I wasn't aware of the dire situation in prisons through neglect - just another reason I think for the hasty calling of the election before it became apparent just how dire things had become and little being done.

Prisons have suffered from funding cuts, just like many other public services. I think part of the problem is that improving prisons and ways of rehabilitating prisoners isn't a vote winner.

I knew things were not good in prisons (I am a Guardian reader, after all 😁) but reading Rory Stewart's book, On the Edge' in which he talks about his experiences as a prisons minister was an eye opener. It's a shame it's not available as a standalone piece for people to read.

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but people who work in education who are student facing have to complete something called prevent training. It is to identify young people, often vulnerable, who may be at risk as being radicalised. This includes organisations like EDL. The threat to the public is the same from these groups as it is from other extreme groups. Why should they get special treatment?

I certainly think the trouble with the national curriculum is that its its academically based, and we've lost the trade skills or preparation for trades skills that we used to have in education Quokka.

Yes Casdon - just before an election was called for.

I must admit I wasn't aware of the dire situation in prisons through neglect - just another reason I think for the hasty calling of the election before it became apparent just how dire things had become and little being done.

Quokka
At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?
Sounds a good idea, especially if it was a compulsory part of the curriculum. I know it would be difficult to fit in time wise, but it would give students a taste of discipline, and experiences that might be useful for them.
My KS3 DGD is a Navy cadet, but she had to compete for a place in that group, and they meet out of school hours. You can’t make out of school hours compulsory.