These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Freya5
Don’t take it personally, many of us have taken our turn in the barrel 😩

I have reported your post Freya5. Personal insults are completely unnecessary, not to mention mean.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

You have made it clear that you dislike DO. That’s fine. But try not to muddle your dislike with understanding the argument behind what he is saying. You might find it enlightening.

Maerion

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

*primrose read that and then understand my argument.

White nationalism indeed.

This is not a new argument, as I did a thesis on just this subject when I was at university about 100 years ago.

It is a pity that it is not more fully understood or taught. AlthoughI admit a tad niche😄

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Doodledog

Callistemon213

I rather like him

So do I. Isn't he a professor of Black history? That's why his programmes tend to be about slavery etc. It's not exactly a crowded market, so his voice is heard more than others on the subject. I love his House Through Time series, too.

I liked his House Through Time too. He goes on and on about white people having slaves but never mentions the black people who captured white people and enslaved them.

As an example many white Irish people were captured and taken to Barbados where they were kept as slaves and the lowest of the low. A small community still exists to this day. They were called Red Legs as with their pale Irish skin they burned really badly. the singer Rihanna is a descendant.

You are re-writing history. - it is the primrose farage version of British history. Entirely incorrect with a tiny bit if truth attached. It is what populists do.

I really don’t have the time or inclination to say why.

Nothing to do with Farage and true!

You are always telling people not to spread misinformation and now you are inferring that what I posted is untrue. It absolutely is not!

I will just leave this link as I am on my way to hospital appt.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-roots-were-there-irish-slaves-in-barbados-1.2337597

I hope you have the decency to apologise.

And did you check these “facts” against academic material?

No? - I thought not.

You little bit of truth is that indeed Irish emigrated to Barbados beginning during William and Mary”s reign. But that is where you “truthful facts” end. They were never slaves or considered the lowest of the low. Their economic relationship with their employers was entirely different.

They were indentured servants. A common practice during this time. Indeed many individuals in the West Indies, and indeed throughout Africa etc can trace back their ancestors to indentured labour.

They were never slaves. Indeed once their indentured contract ended they were free to go where they wished.

In this febrile time truth matters particularly where we are discussing race.

You are so arrogant. Obviously you don’t approve of my link because it’s from the Irish Times. Some would say that’s a racist reason because you only listen to what Olusaga says. He isn’t God you know!

I have watched him on countless discussions on TV and whatever the subject he will drag it round to racism. He is rude and arrogant and shouts over people all the time.

I call these poor people slaves, you call them something else but they were treated terribly and most were not aware of their rights.

borgenproject.org/redlegs-of-barbados/#:~:text=Oliver%20Cromwell%2C%20a%20political%20and,become%20the%20Redlegs%20of%20Barbados.

Obviously this will be a pack of lies in your eyes.🤣

Redhead56

The sentences are not lengthy enough considering the damage caused and the cost to repair all the damage.

Maybe the punishment is not long enough. Maybe community service on top, after the time served, should be a consideration in future. There is a huge need for volunteers in the country and if really remorseful they could continue to fill the gap ‘….idle hands’ and all that. (Even though in an ideal world many volunteer positions should really be funded)

Maerion

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

Cheers m’dears.

I should have stopped and found the source myself

Doing it from memory is never a very good idea.

The sentences are not lengthy enough considering the damage caused and the cost to repair all the damage.

Babs03

My husband is a man of colour as of course are my children. As a white woman I had never experienced how it feels to be on the receiving end of racism, now I do and so can list some of the realities for people of colour living in predominantly white countries.
1. You will need to have ‘that conversation’ with your kids. Heartbreaking but necessary.
2. More often than not you will be searched at airports etc.
3. People will insist upon asking where you come from, even if you were born here.
4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you.
5. At interviews and when you get a job you will have to try harder in order to succeed.
6. If you have a house, nice car, etc., some people will question how you got all this.
7. Some people will make false assumptions, that you are culturally backward, treat women badly, are money grabbing/criminally minded.

This is as much as I can think of off the cuff.

4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you
Which is what happened to someone I know twice last week

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

My husband is a man of colour as of course are my children. As a white woman I had never experienced how it feels to be on the receiving end of racism, now I do and so can list some of the realities for people of colour living in predominantly white countries.
1. You will need to have ‘that conversation’ with your kids. Heartbreaking but necessary.
2. More often than not you will be searched at airports etc.
3. People will insist upon asking where you come from, even if you were born here.
4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you.
5. At interviews and when you get a job you will have to try harder in order to succeed.
6. If you have a house, nice car, etc., some people will question how you got all this.
7. Some people will make false assumptions, that you are culturally backward, treat women badly, are money grabbing/criminally minded.

This is as much as I can think of off the cuff.

The Irish indentured Labour or indeed prisoner, may have been forced labour to an extent, but they were never slaves in the economic or actual sense.

None of them were bought or sold on - all within a time frame gained their freedom.

Thy were never part of the slave economy.

Whitewavemark2

MaizieD

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

So my question..

Did the Irish have the same economic relationship to their employers as the African?

The answer seems to be that some of then did, and some of them didn't.

But really it would mean doing a bit more in depth research than a quick look at wikipedia. I didn't find Primrose's source particularly convincing one way or the other, either.

But, I don't think 'slavery' is relevant to the racist nature of the riots. Or to Olusaga. He doesn't have slave ancestry.

MaizieD

Good God. You lot just go chattering on about slavery.😒

Slavery is an expression of racism, but racism embraces far, far more than slavery.

It does now - but not when it was first used as a concept.

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Yup. Racism in action.

No😮 that isn’t racism.

Racism ideology was used by the European to justify slavery.

The reason for the capture of slaves was entirely different, in the tribal warfare. They had no reason justify their actions so race was never an issue

Good God. You lot just go chattering on about slavery.😒

Slavery is an expression of racism, but racism embraces far, far more than slavery.

I was aware of Irish slaves

I am also aware of slaves in UAE countries currently from the Indian continent.

MaizieD

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

So my question..

Did the Irish have the same economic relationship to their employers as the African?

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Yup. Racism in action.

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Still are to a degree.

But that is not what we are talking about.

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Sparklefizz

Primrose53

Whitewavemark2

David Olusoga wrote today that the rioters are simply racists. There is zero excuse for what they did.

Am inclined to agree.

Everybody in the world is racist according to him.

I do wonder how his mum feels because she is white and brought him up as a single mum yet she seems to have been written out of his life story.

I’m shaped by my mother, a product of her incredible resilience, determination and ambition for her children. My mother is remarkable. She fought for her children, for their education, for them to have expectations. I’d love to say I’m an incredible self-invention, but largely I was pushed by my mother. I’m a product of a truly remarkable parent. And as a parent now, bringing up my child with far more material resources, I’m even more in awe of her

David Olusoga

Always check that you can’t be found out before you lie.

You have also to understand the “mindset” of the European during this period.

White people were superior in every way to black people, because God had made them so. It is only the black nations that were able to tolerate slavery because they were naturally inferior. White people were never therefore able to tolerate slavery.

It was during this time that the concept of race emerged.