What do you hope for in the budget?

Allira

growstuff

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

But their income may be just above the limit because they may have a small works pension.

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

🤔

It really isn't that simple. Nobody with total income over the new state pension receives Pension Credit.

I'm not claiming that the way the state pension is worked out is fair, but it just isn't true that everybody on the old state pension is worse off than everybody on the new state pension, especially when factors such as the later retirement age, more NI contributions, loss of SERPs and the fact that occupational pensions (which mean loss of state pension) aren't subject to the triple lock.

I actually read the "small print" in 2011, when the additional year to wait for state pension was announced and I worked out that I wouldn't be that much better off with the new state pension for all sorts of reasons. As it is, I'll have to live to 84 to break even. Quite honestly, I'm not going to spend my remaining years feeling bitter about unfairness - I've got better things to do.

Not everyone on the old pension is on less than the highest rate of the new pension, and not everyone on the new pension is on the top rate either.

Some on the old pension get more than those on the new could hope for, and of course get any occupational (and/or private) pension on top.

Yes, anyone who has not paid full contributions will not get a full pension under either system, and anyone on the old pension who did not pay SERPS will get less than those with the full new pension, but that really isn’t everyone. Someone who did pay SERPS and has a widow’s pension can get significantly more than the top rate of new pension, to which nothing can be added.

I’m not sure what is being argued for here. It seems that it’s just a generalised dig at the government - if not, what is it that you want to see, Molly and Allira?

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

Yes.

growstuff

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

But their income may be just above the limit because they may have a small works pension.

Therefore still the same amount less than someone on the new State Pension plus the same small private pension.

🤔

If you’re truthful, you know that history tells us that the poor don’t fare well under any government including both main parties.
I would never claim the poor fared well under the Conservatives.
But no matter which government, the rich get rich, and the poor don’t.
Certainly under the last Labour government we, as the poor got poorer. The impact of their actions still affects us now.

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

If they are, they'll be receiving the same or more than people on the new state pension.

Casdon

Wherever a limit is set there are always people who are just above and just below it, that’s the nature of the beast, isn’t it? Raising the PC threshold would help some people, but others will still fall outside whatever changes are made. History tells us that the poorest in society fare best under Labour governments, so I’m sure this is on their radar.

Agreed. I am virtually never in favour of means-testing, as it is divisive in so many ways.

I also hope that the JAB are helped, but not by dragging those with just a bit more than them down, which is how means-testing works. You have £10, and the cut-off for getting an extra fiver is £9, so someone with £8 is taken up to having £13 and you are stuck with the £10 you've scraped together by doing without. Meanwhile, the people making a fortune from overcharging for essentials rub their hands in glee as more people can still afford to pay them.

I'd rather see full bills cut, so there aren't people who can't afford to put the heating on in the first place.

Over 27% less is not just below

We shall wait and see but I doubt anything advantageous will be announced for many people who are JAM.

Wherever a limit is set there are always people who are just above and just below it, that’s the nature of the beast, isn’t it? Raising the PC threshold would help some people, but others will still fall outside whatever changes are made. History tells us that the poorest in society fare best under Labour governments, so I’m sure this is on their radar.

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

Agreed about the non-sequitur. The 'riddle' (or more accurately the dubious figures that inspired it) assume that those on the old pension are getting the lowest amount, and those on the new the highest, when neither is necessarily true. It was never an accurate analogy.

Yes, those who are just above the PC limit (which I assume is what you mean?) will miss out, regardless of which pension they are on. It's not a simple case of 'old=poor/new=less so'.

According to today's news the pension is set to rise by more than the WFP, which I take to be what RR was referring to when she kept talking about the triple lock. Again, as any rise is a percentage, those on either pension who get less will get less of a rise, of course.

It's a two tier system of pensions, full of anomalies, open to grievances from all and not well thought through.

The women who miss out most, of course, are those who had to wait longer for their pension but are on the old system whilst others a day younger receive the new State Pension.

Allira

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

Precisely Allira. That’s already been discussed, but it’s evidently beyond the comprehension of any government.
They would take a lot longer to grasp it than I’ve seen happen, and would come up with all sorts of figure juggling to justify the fact

that through no fault of their own some pensioners are getting up to £2688.40 pa or £224 less per month or £51.70 less per week, whilst still paying the same prices for food, fuel, rent, etc as those born later.
And that’s before the withdrawal of the WFA.

Non-sequitur.

What if they're just above the limit?

Mollygo

Allira

I shall have a glass of Lidl own brand Prosecco to celebrate FriedGreenTomatoes2

I thought when we were caught in the pension changeover trap that it was grossly unfair.
However the point that older pensioners are still paying the same price for food, fuel, living etc whilst having to do that on up to £2688.40 less per year, or £224 less per month or 51.70 less per week evidently bothers me more than it bothers other, perhaps because I’ve seen the impact on people I know.

So that was the answer to the riddle? Why on earth didn't you just say so?

What makes you think it bothers you more than it bothers others? People were trying to work out a set of figures that don't add up, not saying that people on the old pension have it easy.

To be fair, Casdon, whilst you're right about the unfairness of the six extra years, the fact that it's not comparable is not the fault of the people on the old pension, and doesn't give them more to live on now.

In any case, if someone is on the old pension with no other source of income they will still get the WFP as they will qualify for Pension Credit and get more than someone on the new pension.

Mollygo

Allira

I shall have a glass of Lidl own brand Prosecco to celebrate FriedGreenTomatoes2

I thought when we were caught in the pension changeover trap that it was grossly unfair.
However the point that older pensioners are still paying the same price for food, fuel, living etc whilst having to do that on up to £2688.40 less per year, or £224 less per month or 51.70 less per week evidently bothers me more than it bothers other, perhaps because I’ve seen the impact on people I know.

That's if they managed to pay the full 39 years of NI contributions for women and 44 years of contributions for men. Any fewer and the amount is reduced proportionately.
There was never any clarity with regard to pensions, particularly as far as women were concerned.
Will the rules change yet again?

What do I hope for in the Budget?
No point in thinking about it really, as my MIL used to say "They're going to do what they're going to do".
Nothing we think or say will change that.

Allira

I shall have a glass of Lidl own brand Prosecco to celebrate FriedGreenTomatoes2

I thought when we were caught in the pension changeover trap that it was grossly unfair.
However the point that older pensioners are still paying the same price for food, fuel, living etc whilst having to do that on up to £2688.40 less per year, or £224 less per month or 51.70 less per week evidently bothers me more than it bothers other, perhaps because I’ve seen the impact on people I know.

I shall have a glass of Lidl own brand Prosecco to celebrate FriedGreenTomatoes2

Allira

^We will have to live to be 75 before we overtake the total sum given to older pensioners^

So older pensioners are disadvantaged after the age of 75.

True.
But when I did my sums it was nearer 80 Allira. Sadly some (most?) of us won’t reach that age. Anything less is a ‘win’ fiscally for the State.

Aren't you lucky to have worked those extra years.

I wish!

Allira

I'd rather have worked after 60 but it wasn't possible. Neither was paying NI contributions possible after 60 even if you were allowed to work.

Mumsnet has nothing on GN for intergenerational differences!
Who'd have thought it.

It’s pretty obvious that there will be though, isn’t it, because a 65 year olds experiences are as different to an eighty years olds as those of a 25 year old compared with a forty year old?
I’m all in favour of raising the pension credit threshold and personal allowance, just not in favour of sweeping the extra six years we have worked under the carpet, because that’s not fair.

I'd rather have worked after 60 but it wasn't possible. Neither was paying NI contributions possible after 60 even if you were allowed to work.

Mumsnet has nothing on GN for intergenerational differences!
Who'd have thought it.

Allira

^We will have to live to be 75 before we overtake the total sum given to older pensioners^

So older pensioners are disadvantaged after the age of 75.

Not if they have SERPS or a widow's pension, no. I am still waiting for my new pension, and had to contribute thousands to make up for being contacted out, despite having 47 full years. My mum stayed at home for most of my childhood, retired at 60, but gets more than I will, and has done for the best part of 30 years already.

We will have to live to be 75 before we overtake the total sum given to older pensioners

So older pensioners are disadvantaged after the age of 75.

Rosie51

I'm obviously thicker than two short planks, I don't get the riddles at all.

I just wish the budget was here so we'd know for sure what's going to change.

Agreed, Rosie. I don't think anyone gets the riddles.

That's a good guess, Pantglas, but no, it can't be the old pension over the new one, as the sums take no account of SERPS or widows pension or the fact that someone on the old pension alone would qualify for both PC and the WFP. Some on the old pension are on more than anyone on the new one, who have no way to improve it unless they have an occupational one as well, which they have paid into.

To be fair, Casdon, whilst you're right about the unfairness of the six extra years, the fact that it's not comparable is not the fault of the people on the old pension, and doesn't give them more to live on now.

It's a mystery, but yes, we'll find out what's happening (if not about the £2600) on Budget Day.

So I also hope it's not the "answer"to the puzzle.